The Pope

[jobim]

I don't go by mainstream - I read the sites listed and others I trust. There is no question
my mind but that this pontificate is creating troubles in many directions, the extent of
which remains to be seen. I am wary of everything emerging.

http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/
http://www.ncregister.com/
http://www.churchmilitant.com/
http://wdtprs.com/blog/
http://www.thecatholicthing.org/
http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/
http://www.onepeterfive.com/
http://www.cruxnow.com/
http://www.cfnews.org/
http://www.mondayvatican.com/
http://voxcantor.blogspot.com/
http://www.catholicvoice.ie/
http://throwthebumsoutin2010.blogspot.com/
http://torontocatholicwitness.blogspot.com/
http://blogs.new.spectator.co.uk/
http://whatisupwiththesynod.com/
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/

[Mrs. Don-o]

Now you've piqued my curiosity, Bryan92. I wonder if you would also say Peter/Simon Bar-Jonah was "nobody special.">p? In Isaiah 22 (particularly 22:22) there is a culturally relevant description of what it means to be the King's viceroy. Shebna is told by Isaiah that he is going to be deposed, and his authority -- overseeing all of Judah --- is going to be awarded to another. Eliakim (whose name, BTW, means "God sets up"):

"On that day I will call my servant Eliakim son of Hilkiah,
and will clothe him with your robe and bind your sash on him.
I will commit your authority to his hand,
and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem
and to the house of Judah.
I will place on his shoulder
the key of the house of David;
he shall open, and no one shall shut;
he shall shut, and no one shall open."

It is this legal relationship to the King --- this very Scriptural passage --- which Jesus is alluding to an Matthew 16:19 when He instructs Peter:

"I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven."

The functions of Eliakim's office as King Hezekiah's seneschal (vicar, "grand vizier" or governor) are seen from the oracle of Isaiah (Isaiah 22:15). Eliakim is the "treasurer" (the Revised Version, margin "steward"), and is "over the house" --- and not just the "house" in the sense of a royal palace, but over all of Judah.

At his installation he is clothed with a robe and girdle, the insignia of his office, and, having the government committed into his hand, is the "father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to the house of Judah" (Isaiah 22:21). The key of the house of David is laid on his shoulder, and he alone has power to open and shut, this being symbolic of his absolute authority as the king's representative (Isaiah 22:22).

Do you think this makes Eliakim somebody in authority, somebody special? Is Jesus, following this Scriptural trope, making Peter somebody special?

And if not, then what --- in your estimation --- is the proper meaning of the power of the keys?

This isn't a trick question. I'd be interested to see what you think Jesus was trying to signify, and how you would illustrate or give evidence of this from Scripture.

[Bryanw92]

>>This isn’t a trick question. I’d be interested to see what you think Jesus was trying to signify, and how you would illustrate or give evidence of this from Scripture.

It is a power granted to the apostles, who were the foundation of the church. That doesn’t extend to any “apostolic succession” since the power after the establishment of the church lies in the Word of God (Scripture) as the keys of Christ’s authority in the church.

[Arthur McGowan]

Who do you claim believes that the Pope is not a man, and is not a sinner?

[Mrs. Don-o]

Thank you, Bryan, for a quick and relevant reply.

However, it does not quite work, I think, as exact, literal Scriptural evidence. In the "I give you the keys" verses in Matthew 16, the "you" word is singular. Jesus is speaking to Peter:

Greek text (I do hope this comes our legible on your screen) is Nestle-Aland 27; English text is World English Bible:

16:19 δώσω σοι τὰς κλεῖδας τῆς βασιλείας τῶν οὐρανῶν,
16:19 I will give to you the keys of the Kingdom of Heaven,

"(to) you" [soi] here is singular

καὶ ὃ ἐὰν δήσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται δεδεμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς,
and whatever you bind on earth will have been bound in heaven;

"you bind" [dēsē(i)s] is 2nd person singular

καὶ ὃ ἐὰν λύσῃς ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς ἔσται λελυμένον ἐν τοῖς οὐρανοῖς.
and whatever you release on earth will have been released in heaven.”

"you release" [lusē(i)s] is 2nd person singular

Here, Jesus is speaking directly and specifically to Peter. I don't deny that all the Apostles had a share in this power. We know that from the way the Church actually, historically developed and operated. (Apostolic Tradition) So we're in agreement on that.

As for successors, we know that from the same source. We know St. Paul, specifically, ordained and laid hands on chosen successors (Timothy and Titus); we also know, from the actual historic record, that St. John did the same, chose Polycarp of Smyrna as a successor, who in turn ordained Ireneus of Lyon, and so on: a chain of succession by the laying on of hands. The same is found throughout the historic records still extant from the ante-Nicene Fathers.

Have you any evidence, from Scripture and/or from the historic record, that this is not so?

[Mrs. Don-o]

BTW, all the popes are sinners. Like all bishops, priests, preachers, ministers, pastors, and pewsitters. We confess that, out loud and in public, at every Mass, every day, every one of us!

[Bryanw92]

>>BTW, all the popes are sinners. Like all bishops, priests, preachers, ministers, pastors, and pewsitters. We confess that, out loud and in public, at every Mass, every day, every one of us!

OK. I didn’t say he wasn’t. I was mostly talking about his “special” status as the “Vicar of Jesus Christ”.

[Mrs. Don-o]

OK, Bryan. Got that.

I'm going to bed now, Had a pretty full day. I'd be glad to ready our response to #25 tomorrow, or whenever. These are often pretty good discussions.

Thank you for your time and thoughts. Happy New Year, FRiend!

[SaraJohnson]

Don’t worry about outsiders.

When you have a problem Pope, read the Bible a lot and grab hold of Jesus. Talk to Him. Learn to let Him lead you. He knows you and loves you very much.