The Swedish K Gun Was Commandos’ Friend in Vietnam

War is Boring ^ | November 22, 2015 | Mike Perry

[C19fan]

The nine-millimeter Carl Gustav M/45 submachine gun occupies a unique place in United States Special Forces history for, during the Vietnam War, it was often chosen over the then troublesome M-16 series by members looking for a reliable, controllable and reasonably accurate weapon at short ranges.

[AppyPappy]

A friend who served in ‘nam said the unit banned AK’s because no one wanted to hear one going off on their 6.

He spent $1000 for an AR-15 and lamented “These were free when I was a teenager”.

[archy]

ping

I had a very tiny role in the Illinois State Police consideration of the S&W M76 SMG inconjunction with their adoption of the S&W M39 semiauto pistol in the late 1960s-early '70s. The M76 was essentially a product-improved M45b reworked for US domestic production using American-sourced materials, English dimensions and S&W production methods. It used a modified M45b magazine, and fed most- but not all- then-available 9mm commercial ammo.

Most of the ISP cops who got to try the M76 and had never fired a SMG before liked it; those who had experience with the Thompson did not. But the old Thompson was no longer in serious production [Auto-Ordnance was turning out commerative versions and the like, but their quality was not up to the level of the wartime Savage '28 Tommies, much less the original 15,000 Colt 1921/1928 guns.] And the ISP Tommies and Model 12 Winchester shotguns were tired and worn so off to the dealers and collectors they went. ISP got some Model 76 guns, but ISP was having trouble with the 9mm ammo in their Model 39s, let alone the buzzguns, so they never did become an item of ISP general issue.

[archy]

I have fired this weapon. I want one.

Additional magazines are a little pricy [get some for a Finnish KP44 if you can; they interchange, are far less expensive, and work great!] and the gun's a tad heavy, but very controllable as a result.

You want one? Watch this space.

[archy]

But whoever slung a Carl Gustav was the king of cool on the flight line.

Other than the Air America crews in the grey flight suits with the Uzis that'd fit in a flight bag or briefcase. A Swedish K would go in a briefcase, but you had to unscrew the barrel jacket and barrel, which could be inconvenient.

Cool of the flight line? A folding stock AK or belt-fed RPD with bloodstains all over it. Mine was North Korean.

Left to right: Col. Thong Vongrasamy (successfully rescued a US pilot shot down in North-Vietnam but got himself killed), CIA Pop Buell, Col. Khamsao and Col. Douangta Norasing (who now resides in Georgia, USA).

[Nailbiter]

bflr

[archy]

There’s a line in “The Best and The Brightest” (1973) about LBJ & McNamara sending their `whiz kids’ to RVN to “really get to know the situation on the ground”. These `experts’ were easily recognized by their safari jackets & Swedish K submachine guns slung in front.

Seldom seen outside of Saigon.

I got to train a good many of those *whiz kids* in a two-week Infantry weapons familiarization course in which they learned how to load, aim and fire the usual Infantry and embassy weapons then in use: one morning on the M16A1 rifle, then the afternoon on the M1911A1 .45 pistol. Next day the M79 grenade launcher followed by tossing an M26 frag grenade followed by a Claymore course in the afternoon: clack!BOOM! Friday was a morning intro and shoot with the Beretta M12 SMG, used by some spooks and embassy guards and the AK47/Type 56 in the afternoon.

The second week was a session with the S&W M60 2-inch revolver or M49 *bodyguard* in the morning and the M45b Swedish K in the afternoon, all five days, five hours per session. Most of our guys had GI *106* fatigues with no US Army tag or namepatch, though yep, on their last day, there were some khaki pants and jackets.

I got to talk to a few of them over our lunch breaks, and found the background of most was in accounting. Chasing the money/corruption? FBI? State Department? No matter: two weeks after they began, they were a lot better able to take care of themselves than when we started.

Oh yeah: two other fans of the k'pist: Joe Galloway, the newsman with the Cav troopers at the Ia Drang fight memorialized in We Were Soldiers Once, and Young...

and one analyst Daniel Ellsberg, best known for The Pentagon Papers and one of those safari suit guys. The story about how Lou *Black Luigi* Conein kept him from being murdered is simultaneously funny, amusing, and sad.

Young war correspondent Joseph Galloway with the Marines in Danang, August 1965. The gear: A Swedish K 9mm sub machinegun and a Nikon F black body camera.

Mr. Ellsberg did not always wear safari suits.

[Lurker]

I was fortunate enough to purchase one of the ISP S&S Model 19s which were replaced by that piece of junk Model 39. In a moment of very poor judgement I sold it, ironically enough, to buy one of the ISP Model 39s a few years later.

I still regret both of those decisions.

Those 19s were excellent guns.

L

[archy]

I was fortunate enough to purchase one of the ISP S&S Model 19s which were replaced by that piece of junk Model 39. In a moment of very poor judgement I sold it, ironically enough, to buy one of the ISP Model 39s a few years later.
I still regret both of those decisions.
Those 19s were excellent guns.

The early 39's got a narrowed extractor in the 39-2 version after some broke on hard brass [early Secret Service Super Vel and Swedish m/39, whereupon it was found that the narrowed extractor would sometimes cut through the rim of some of the Winchester brass in use by the ISP. You takes your money and pays your choice.

My Uncle Denny liked his M39 aside from its habit of having the checkering on the grips chew up his dress shirts. It also fit in the same holsters he used for a couple of lightweight and, eventually, a Combat Commander he carried. The S&W wasn't a .45, the Commanders were, so the S&W was less frequently carried by him, and I eventually wound up with it. The early [pre 1966] guns are C&R items, and when I see a nice one, I try to grab it. Back in the days, I built up a steel-framed S&W M52 target gun with a single action trigger and the slide/barrel of an M39. It's one of my 3 favourite 9mm handguns, at least for pretty days on a nice sunshiny range.

My *model 19* is actually a former round butt 2 1/2" model 66 that lost the short barrel and ejector rod and got 4-inch gun components instesd. The round butt fits my hand better and the longer tube balences nicely, plus the ejector/extractor star deals with longer cases better than the short-stroke M66 snubby.

Every now and again I load up a batch of .38 cases and head for the range with the old *fun* wheelguns. Those seem to be the days on which I spend more time at the range, and meet more interesting folks.

[archy]

I would have loved to have a S&W 76, ever since I saw Charlton Heston mowing down mutants in “The Omega Man”.

S&W M76s were used by the bad guys to murder Sheriff *Big Stick* Buford Pusser in the movie Waliking Tall, though in the real world, an M2 carbine *stolen* or provided from the Memphis PD property room was used.

Former Marine Lee Marvin hauled one around in the earlier film Prime Cut, in which a young Sissy Spacek also appeared. I wonder what combat vet Marvin really thought of the things.

[Lurker]

I seem to recall a shootout the ISP was involved in where the 9mm 39s gave “unsatisfactory” results. The fight ended up being stopped with a 12 gauge slug, which usually does the trick. IIRC the 39s were replaced shortly thereafter.

L

[elcid1970]

Some of the pilots refused to carry any weapon while on a mission. Said it would just give the enemy a souvenir.

My `cool gun’ was a S&W Model 15, known as the Air Force .38.
In much better condition than the tired old M&P’s.

Somebody with a Swedish or M3 slung in front almost bought it when the gun interfered with his pulling the cyclic back while on final. Cameras could cause that, too.

[elcid1970]

I was in country 1971-72.

For an account of our last full year in RVN, read “Trial By Fire” by Dale Andrade, 1995. The 1972 NVA Easter Offensive described in tremendous detail. I flew Hueys & saw lots of killed T-55 tanks in MR III, but didn’t realize how huge the whole battle was. I was 22, what did I know?

[FreedomPoster]

That’s what my Dad called them. He was armor, was in M41 Walker Bulldogs in the late 1950s, really liked the M3. It was their standard crew personal weapon.

[archy]

For an account of our last full year in RVN, read “Trial By Fire” by Dale Andrade, 1995. The 1972 NVA Easter Offensive described in tremendous detail. I flew Hueys & saw lots of killed T-55 tanks in MR III, but didn’t realize how huge the whole battle was. I was 22, what did I know?

Trained as a tank gunner, I knew exactly where to hit a T54/T55, [and most everything else] headon, from either side, or behind. And having been on the M551 Sheridan in Germany for a while, I was familiar with guided AT rocket launch systems, mostly the Sheridan's MGM-51B/C missile system, but also the U.S. BGM-71 TOW anti-tank missile and TOW launcher first fielded 1n 1970, whereupon my first enlisted tour ended in May and off to journalism school on the GI bill I went, 4 years out of my six-year military obligation dealt with, and my status placed on inactive reserve for the next two. And then came February '72, and I got a reserve activation notice, with instructions to report to a nearby base [not Ft Knox] with all my military equipment [long since turned in and forgotten] and additional info regarding reporting to a local recruiter if transportation was required or other difficulties. My short-term obligation would only have been for March-May of '72, so off I went, got a new issue of stateside khaki Class A dress uniforms, stateside [not tropical/jungle] fatigues and boots, and my shots updated and started back on the antimalarial white pill and orange pill.

I got a 10-day briefing on the TOW-1 helicopter mounted missile system, with the expectation that we'd have what proved to be 400 T-34, T-54 and Type 59 [the Chinese version of the T-54/55] medium and 200 PT-76 light amphibious tanks for target practice. Creighton Abrams figured that since the shoe hadn't been dropped during Tet '72, all was well. On 30 March 1972 14 divisions and 26 independent regiments of the People's Army of Vietnam, aka *The NVA* hit the ARVN 1st, 2nd and 3rd Divisions around Loc Ninh, Quan Lợi, and An Loc initially, and in Kontum and AnLoc shortly thereafter. Meanwhile, I was busy with a bad reaction to an updated plague vaccination, and my second plane ride to Ton Son Nut was put on hold until some late-model Hueys with TOW systems were readied for followup reinforcements.

On 04 April, Nixon ordered the resumption of bombing of North Vietnam, previously halted with the end of Operation Rolling Thunder 1n November 1968. On 08 May Nixon authorized the aerial mining of Haiphong and other North Vietnamese ports. On 10 May, Operation Linebacker, a systematic aerial assault on North Vietnam's transportation, storage, and air defense systems began. And, since the U.S. had at that point not yet signed the SALT I treaty limiting US nuclear arms, the next possible step could have been the US withdrawal from those treaty talks, a potential threat to the Soviet homeland itself. By mid-June it was pretty well over in most places, but the cost had been high for both sides.

By the end of May, the NVA/PAVN had lost 134 T-54s, 56 PT-76s and 60 T-34s, some by helicopter TOW launchers and 2.75-inch rocket pods, some by ARVN tank main gun fire, some by B-52 strikes [one every 55 minutes at An Loc for a couple of days, I hear] and some by ARVN grunts and Marines with LAWs and captured B-40s. As it turned out, my hotshot gunnery assistance was not required, and I never got to renew my acquaintance with the cathouses and massage parlors of Southeast Asia. I've always wondered what part of the country/ what units I might have wound up with, but by mid-Summer of '72 I was back at the University in J-school getting ready fore my first overseas newspaper/magazine photography assignment.

At the Munich Olympics, near Pullach/Munich, where I'd been stationed in the 1960's. That turned out not to be quite the routine assignment I had been told it would be, either.

[archy]

I seem to recall a shootout the ISP was involved in where the 9mm 39s gave “unsatisfactory” results. The fight ended up being stopped with a 12 gauge slug, which usually does the trick. IIRC the 39s were replaced shortly thereafter.

The last 9mm loading used by the ISP was W-W 115 gr JHP+P+ Ranger. In the 1970s there was an Indianapolis detective killed carrying a M39 in a shoulder rig out to serve a misdemeanor warrant on some goof, and arrived to find the guy's escaped con older brother at home instead. He dragged the Smith out of the holster, hit the mag release button in the process, and the magazine safety worked as advertised, the cop pulling the trigger four or five times without result while the con emptied a .22 semiauto rifle into him. No vest. Type of ammo didn't matter, since the round in the chamber never fired. S&W was sued for their pistol's *defect* and, I believe, settled out of court. I'd have said it was more the fault of the holster, except that Jan Stevenson and I exchanged info on a similar matter [Browning GP35 mag safeties] in which he mentioned a *shootout* between a fella with a M39 versus another with a crossbow. Yep, the m39 got the mag release bumped and didn't work but the crossbow did. Once is an incident, twice is co-incidence, three is a developing trend. But back to ammo:

The 1970s ISP issue ammo was the 100-grain W-W silvertip, notorious for having all the effect of full metal jacket ball. Some ISP guys carried a round of 90-grain Super Vel JHP up the spout in those days [then the Secret Service 9mm load, as the 110-grain .38 was the *Treasury Load*] but the Super Vel round was awful about blowing up on glass, and for bouncing off the intended if it hit any curved or rounded portion of the skull. For a short time in 1980 the ISP issued 115 gr Winchester Silvertip which was used once in the early/mid 1980s near Joliet on a biker with not-real-happy results. By 1986 the ISP had moved on, but it was still the FBI 9mm load, and that's what the FBI shooters at Miami had as they were cut up by a couple of former MPs and Rangers turned bank robbers and murders in 1986.

It took Tom Burczynski and 35 years of work to get the 9mm [and some other calibers] JHP bullet to the point of dependable reliability.

Now if he'd just do a .30 carbine bullet and a deer slug, I'd know for what to ask for Christmas.

[PLMerite]

US knockoff S&W M76 came in whisper mode:

I couldn't find an image of a Swedish K with a silencer.

[elcid1970]

“By the end of May, the NVA/PAVN had lost 134 T-54s, 56 PT-76s and 60 T-34s, some by helicopter TOW launchers and 2.75-inch rocket pods, some by ARVN tank main gun fire, some by B-52 strikes [one every 55 minutes at An Loc for a couple of days, I hear] and some by ARVN grunts and Marines with LAWs and captured B-40s.”

I was in the relief of An Loc, A Co 229th AHB. We came up the east side of QL 13 at 5,000 ft then a Cobra guided us into a downward spiral to the road with rubber trees on both sides. They watched our approach angle & we were met with mortar fire upon touchdown. Carried ARVNs & Rangers (may have been Marines), 13 per stick. Dead T-54s which tried to defilade inside an Arclight crater. Dead BTR-50s including one bristling with antennas = dead NVA colonel for sure.

Three different shot down UH-IH medevacs, painted white with red crosses. NVA tanks with the turrets lifted off; ARVN volley fire with M-72s. The town mostly pulverized into rubble. ARVNs the color of red dust from all the incoming; they lasted the siege for 61 days, beating the French record at Dien Bien Phu. Loc Ninh up the road was overrun.

When the helicopter started to shake in flight, it wasn’t mechanical, just an Arclight going in a few miles away.

The vaunted Vo Nguyen Giap was lousy when it came to tanks; he used them up like there was no tomorrow.

[Southack]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F_mI9pdE1vM

[Squantos]

Yep .....my baby when traveling in central and south america. That wasn’t subsonic 147gr 9mm in that video. Too loud. A Beretta 70S .22 LR pistol with a can, a Browning High Power with Mecgar 15 round mags and the MP5SDA3 were a daily carry for a few months down there...... Very very good tools for Central and South America back in 80’s ..... Stay Safe !!

[Squantos]

Marines of every era love what works ...... SW76’s never jammed on me in training. Never carried one in harms way or inclimate weather, mud sand etc..... Just behind the fence at Aberdeen MD....:o)

My winter rigs are / were M1A’s or “”Garand”” type action due reports of said marines at Chosin Reservoir .....