Lesbian sex, seduction and murder... by NUNS in a Catholic convent

Daily Mail ^ | 17th January 2014 | Jenny Stanton

[the scotsman]

'A sordid tale of lesbian sex, murder and seduction in a Catholic convent in 19th-century Rome has been discovered in a secret Vatican archive.

The Sant'Ambrogio scandal involves a beautiful young sister who convinced the nuns she was experiencing visions and visits from heaven - then made them engage in rampant sexual activity.

Herbert Wolf, a leading scholar of the Catholic Church, learned of the Sant'Ambrogio scandal when he became one of the first allowed into the archives of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

The naughty nun also entered into an erotic relationship with a theologian on the pretense he was possessed, and is thought to have murdered three other sisters.

But when a German princess fled the convent in disgust, a sex scandal hidden behind a habit for many years was unveiled.

Wolf, a professor of ecclesiastical his­tory at University of Muenster, Germany, made the discovery and has retold it in his book The Nuns of Sant'Ambrogio.

Written in German, the controversial never-told-before tale has been translated into English for the first time.'

[nanetteclaret]

Good.

[nanetteclaret]

Yes, here YOU are. On a Catholic bashing thread. Don’t you have anything better to do? Is this your sole source of entertainment?

[Elsie]

Mudslinging: is it pleasing to God? Here ya go:

Feeling sorry for False Teachers being exposed: is IT pleasing to God?

---

Romans 16:17
   I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them.

 

 

1 Corinthians 4:17
   For this reason I am sending to you Timothy, my son whom I love, who is faithful in the Lord. He will remind you of my way of life in Christ Jesus, which agrees with what I teach everywhere in every church.

 

 

Ephesians 4:14-15
 14.  Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.
 15.  Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 2:15
   So then, brothers, stand firm and hold to the teachings  we passed on to you, whether by word of mouth or by letter.

 

 

2 Thessalonians 3:6
  In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the teaching  you received from us.

 

 

1 Timothy 1:3-4
 3.  As I urged you when I went into Macedonia, stay there in Ephesus so that you may command certain men not to teach false doctrines any longer
 4.  nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies. These promote controversies rather than God's work--which is by faith.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:1-2
 1.  The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.
 2.  Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

 

 

1 Timothy 4:11
  Command and teach these things.

 

 

1 Timothy 6:3-5
 3.  If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching,
 4.  he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 
 5.  and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

 

 2 Timothy 2:15-17
 15.  Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
 16.  Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly.
 17.  Their teaching will spread like gangrene.

 

 

2 Timothy 3:16-17
 16.  All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,
 17.  so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.

 

 

 2 Timothy 4:3-4
  3.  For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
  4.  They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

 

 

Titus 1:11
   They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach--and that for the sake of dishonest gain.

 

 

Titus 2:15
  These, then, are the things you should teach. Encourage and rebuke with all authority. Do not let anyone despise you.

 

 

 Hebrews 13:9
 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings.

 

 

 2 Peter 2:1-3
 1.  But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
 2.  Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
 3.  In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

 

2 John 1:10
  If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take him into your house or welcome him.

[Elsie]

Discussions about doctrine are different from tabloid treatment of lurid sex scandals.

In what way??

Pope John XII (955–964), who gave land to a mistress, murdered several people, and was killed by a man who caught him in bed with his wife.

[Elsie]

Yes, here YOU are. On a Catholic bashing thread. Don’t you have anything better to do? Is this your sole source of entertainment?

Surely you can find a Luther/Protestant bashing website that ONLY Catholics are ALLOWED to post in.

It might be a bit more to your liking.

I hear there are big flocks of birds already roosting there.

[miss marmelstein]

Don’t mistake the Daily Mail for the Daily News. The Daily News is a New York City tabloid beloved by middle class and working class New Yorkers. Its main concerns are local crime and politics - not Dan Brown-like hysteria.

[Mrs. Don-o]

Good catch. I was wrong, I meant "Daily Mail," not "Daily News."

Won't be online today, probably. I've got intestinal woes, didn't sleep last night. Please say a prayer for me, OK?

[miss marmelstein]

Absolutely, Mrs. Don-o. Feel better soon. We need you.

[nanetteclaret]

You are nasty.

[annalex]

Your response is devoid of fact.

That is true. That it is my opinion and not an explanation of the teachings of the Catholic Church is also true.

what I was speaking towards were actual facts of the issues, which if properly framed -- would not, in end result be something which would all that badly

Of course not. That was my conclusion about that burial well as well. That is why I am not here to reflect on that Irish thing at all. The only contribution I could make was the general remark that I did make.

[annalex]

why you are laying this at the feet of "Protestantism"

"atheists and Marxists and islamists" rarely have the institutions peculiar to the Catholic Church, such as Catholic monasteries, schools and charities as a target. None of them would have the mean spirit to attack of all people the nuns. Needless to say, I don't see an atheist or muslim posting here and pinging me. The Irish burial well scandal has every hallmark of Protestant scandal mongering. Besides I don't really care about what atheists and Marxists and islamists think, whereas Protestant profess an interest in Christianity, the Holy Scripture and the life of the Chruch, and these are things I know something about.

[Elsie]

You are nasty.

In what way?

Pointing out the Fake Mary your chosen religion has created?

[Elsie]

The Irish burial well scandal has every hallmark of Protestant scandal mongering.

The recent priests and boys...

... has every hallmark of Protestant scandal mongering.

[MayflowerMadam]

“Pointing out the Fake Mary your chosen religion has created?”

That’s funny. I’m watching a TV show at this moment where a boy was kidnapped. His RCC school mates decided to say some “Hail Marys” and some “Our Fathers”; they “wore out their Rosary beads”; they prayed to Saint So-And-So, the protector of children, and another Saint “What’s-His-Name”, the Something of Something. All fake.

[Albion Wilde]

"atheists and Marxists and islamists" rarely have the institutions peculiar to the Catholic Church, such as Catholic monasteries, schools and charities as a target. None of them would have the mean spirit to attack of all people the nuns.

Now you're just being ridiculous.

[annalex]

Why, what’s funny?

[BlueDragon]

That is why I am not here to reflect on that Irish thing at all.

Yet you did anyway in the next comment to the one here to which I give reply...

Needless to say, I don't see an atheist or muslim posting here and pinging me.

There are not many muslims who are members here. There are a few atheists I take it -- but they tend to stay away from the religion forum.

That may have something to do with why those kind of people "don't ping you"? -- just maybe? Why would those persons be interested in talking to you anyway?

The Irish burial well scandal has every hallmark of Protestant scandal mongering.

Catherine Corliss is Roman Catholic.

From http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/tuam-mother-and-baby-home-the-trouble-with-the-septic-tank-story-1.1823393;

She is sure that a sewage tank operated on the site in the early part of the 20th century because minutes of the workhouse’s board meetings published at the time by the Tuam Herald report problems of overflowing.

Would it have taken up the entire space of what is now known as the unofficial graveyard for the babies who died at the home? “No,” she says. “Maybe a third of the area.” She believes that what Sweeney and Hopkins found was the former sewage tank, which she had previously referred to in her article as a crypt. It seems this is where the story of “800 skeletons dumped in a septic tank” has subsequently come from.

She never denied including mention that the structure was possibly a sewage tank -- dating back to the 19th century, but she did deny saying the word "dumped" as in babies callously "dumped" into a septic tank, for that misrepresents her own findings, being that if the structure which was opened in 1975 had ever been a sewage pit --- it was not being used as one at the time it was being utilized for burials.

From the above sort of evidence (and more which I will not go into) is where the 'sewage tank' aspect of the story originated.

All of that was not "Protestant scandal mongering", but are a part of the facts, although it is regrettable that news agencies worldwide did run with the accusatory headline. Yet since when (of late) have news-writers and editors been "Protestants"? It's more like the majority of the press are cynical (at best) towards Christianity, and all "religion" in general.

It was the casual use of that phrase by yourself "Protestant scandal mongering" -- which prompted my here reply. Don't blame an entire, loosely defined grouping of individuals, for what persons not of there own faith, even those of no particularly "Christian" affiliation at all were the chief "scandal mongers" of.

Let's set the record as straight as possible, while everyone waits for what else may come to light. Corliss (and others) would like there to be some excavations. There are locals who oppose any further disturbances at the area where graves are known to be located. How that will eventually be resolved, I'm not sure, but the local historian Corliss was given some form of government approval for further research into the matters.

She seems to be fair enough, and willing to be thorough. She did spend a moderately significant amount of her own money -- just to do the initial researching into individual names. At some juncture, records for each individual child born there (and died there) was paid by herself, personally. It added up to something like the price of an older, but still decent used automobile? In the several thousands $$$US once one accounts for currency conversion.

Yet there are complications...some which are touched touched upon in this article;

http://tintean.org.au/2014/11/12/action-at-last-in-the-tuam-babies-case/ from Nov. 11 2014

In one of the original versions of the story, the babies’ skeletons were supposedly buried in a ‘septic tank’, but in fact no one knows for certain where the bodies are. The most likely place is under the open green space in the centre of the site where there were sewerage arrangements at one time. The investigative work that has been done so far has revealed that there was a series of about nine cesspits on the grounds. This was a Victorian system of interlinked chambers, up to seven feet in height. The confusion between the supposed septic tank site and the actual sewage system on the grounds has led to some claims that the entire story is a lie fuelled by sectarianism.

But the "entire story" is not a lie, or "hoax". The claims that it was that, and only that, are reminiscent of the not-to-distant past when stories of sexual predation of underage children (many of them young teenage boys) by Roman Catholic priests, were met with walls of denial, and counter-charges of persecuting the (Roman Catholic) Church made against those who brought the allegations. Finally it became well enough established there really had been a ongoing problem, and a problem of long standing -- with one of the worst parts being the efforts on the part of the RCC hierarchy to deny, or else cover up the abuse. That sort of thing does make people to now tend towards being suspicious.

There is one freeper here, a physician whom is Catholic, who himself had long fought against the problem from within the RCC -- and got a whole bunch of grief from those within the RCC for having done so -- spanning to perhaps 20 years ago now?

But back to the Irish story which you yourself admittedly did not raise issue of on this thread, but after the issue was raised, you have talked about (in bringing generalized accusation against "protestants") but said you were not talking about it;

Here, in this article http://philipboucher-hayes.com/2014/06/12/tuam-new-understanding/ is some of the rest of the likely-to-be exculpatory evidence which I came across six months ago. There were apparently multiple underground structures -- some of which (at the least) it can be assumed were used as sewage pits, dating back to when the facility was a 'workhouse' in the 19th century. The Irish army used the facility for some brief span of years also, but never mind that aspect for now. Read the article...but here to follow are portions of it;

The Mail on Sunday has identified two sites side by side each other in its radar survey. Frannie Hopkins and Barry Sweeney discovered one as boys in 1975. The Mail called it Plot B.

Plot A is the square shaped one Mary Moriarty says she fell into in the 1970’s when the ground subsided. A child was found playing with a baby’s skull and when Mary and neighbours investigated she discovered a large underground space with shelves from floor to ceiling stacked with infant bodies. She says she saw in excess of 100 tiny figures swaddled and guessed from the size they were newborn or stillborn.

Subsequently she talked to a woman called Julia Devaney who had been a resident of the home and later an employee. By then in her late seventies she told Mary how she had assisted the nuns carrying dead babies along a tunnel running from the back of the home to this vault.

Now obviously it will take excavation to confirm any of this but her description of the space and the possible existence of a tunnel used to access this burial plot would suggest that plot A (whatever of Plot B) at least was not a septic tank.

[snip]

The tireless Catherine Corless has found documentary evidence proving the existence of a tunnel (WWII era proposals to use them as air raid shelters) and Frannie Hopkins has clear memories of playing in a tunnel as a child but not one that extended as far as the burial sites. So there is limited corroboration for Julia Devaney’s posthumous testimony but Alison O’Reilly of The Mail on Sunday tells me their GPR Survey showed no tunnel.

The other burial plot we cant say that of yet because the plans do indicate the presence of a tank in the vicinity.

Are you aware that some years ago, 2004 I think it was, when another portion of the property was being developed, and excavations for a road were being dug out, there were graves of adults found (and exhumed) on the property? Those graves date back to the old 'work house' days.

If there was some kind of burial vault back then --- why were those persons not placed within it? I ask that question rhetorically, not seeking or demanding answer from anyone here, but more in hope any who have concerns and complaints about how the story was handled, including how it was discussed previously on the pages of FR, will take the above information into consideration.

Additionally, the entire story was part of a larger coming-to-grips with 19th to mid-20th century Irish history, which includes more than a wee bit of less-than righteous treatment of unwed mothers and their offspring, and other embarrassing past cruelties which those of the RCC were involved with.

If it would make anyone feel any better --- there were so-called "Magdalene Asylums" (or Laundries, for most supported themselves in that manner) http://www.newstatesman.com/religion/2013/07/depressing-not-surprising-how-magdalene-laundries-got-away-it run not only by Catholic nuns, but a few of them operated by persons ostensibly Protestant which apparently had their own abuses, much similar to what can be dredged-up from the past that included varying degree of involvement of the RCC in Ireland.

[nanetteclaret]

Didn’t your mama ever tell you it was bad manners to discuss bathroom topics in public? I’m glad to see someone mashed the abuse button on you.

[AppyPappy]

This thread should have a soundtrack