Posted on 08/04/2014 5:37:03 PM PDT by chuckles
I'm 63 years old and in my lifetime, I have been political almost all of it. In my youth, the Viet Nam War was topic one, every day, all day. If you were against the war, you were a Democrat and for the war, a Republican. It was an easy line to see and pretty much lasted through Nixon into the Carter years. During Carter, we were reminded that the economy didn't have to remain bullet proof just because we were Americans. This is where I was intrigued by the fledgling libertarians that had the "pure" economic theory that was almost irrefutable when you had a debate about cause and effect. I was taken for awhile, but then as I dug deeper, I saw flaws, like legalized drugs, a non defense, defense, and a real weakness in the right and wrong God thing. I had watched some of my friends die and go to jail over drugs and I felt if the US wanted to play checkers instead of chess with foreign policy, we would end up with a different flag to salute if we weren't careful. It was the lack of religion that really concerned me though. Many I spoke with were for abortion so the woman could exercise her rights to her own body. I would always retort, "What about the babies rights?" Then it would immediately slide into "If you can kill a baby, you can kill the disabled or mentally deficient." It was about the time DR. Death( or Kevorkian) was big in the news. I had to just call myself a conservative and not libertarian or even a Republican. The moral questions always kept me from going whole hog.
Then the Reagan years and pure bliss for 8 years allowed me to calm down and just make money and raise my family. Bush 41 was weak, but I learned to live with it until Carter. The first drop of the hat and taxes were raised, recession was moving in, and Hillary Care was right in our face. Then Gingrich and the revolution moved in and put Clinton in thumb screws. We had the biggest economic boom I can remember due to Republicans holding just the growth of the government down. It was a living laboratory in front of everyone with what works and what doesn't. Nobody learned a damn thing. Bush 43 came in and we had war, but we also had many years of under 5% unemployment. The war was taxing, but we did mediocre in the money department.
Of course, for whatever reason the wars were unpopular and the libertarians showed up again telling us that everything would be better if we just retreated from Iraq and Afghanistan and came home. Well, here we are, out of both wars and reluctant to pop a cap anywhere.
Obama came in with a bad economy due to Democrats allowing anyone with a pulse to buy a house and Bush got the blame even though he and McCain both had hearings warning of the danger. The average skull full of mush blamed Bush, for whatever reason. They can't really tell you what he did to cause the crash, but hey, he was prez when it happened. Our country was ATTACKED from Afghanistan and Iraq was violating a cease fire for several years when they tried to assassinate Bush 41. Frankly, I don't know what my last straw would be, but trying to kill dad might just be it. We knew he had WMD, had already used them, and was denying inspections for months, even though that was a requirement of the cease fire.
Now there's the history. Today, libertarianism is rearing it's head again, but this time, Young people are coming by the droves and it's scares me. They used to just vote Democrat to legalize dope, you know,......... the most important legislation of all time. Now they hear they will have to pay back the debt and that finally, after 40 years wakes them up to the delima of more food stamps, more debt. But then the old bugaboo comes up of right and wrong. We have already murdered 55 million babies, but now, after 225 years, buggery, is now a right. These mental giants are now saying we have been wrong for thousands of years and misunderstand what God really meant. If you watch any talking head shows, it doesn't really matter what flavor they are, they now smugly proclaim so and so is a bigot or homophobe.
It doesn't matter what channel or what show, it has been settled that gay marriage is coming to America. Just as an example, FNC's Greg Gutfeld is very bright and right on many issues, but he has decided that sodomy is normal, and if you don't like it, get ready to be shunned cursed, and generally ridiculed. He at least isn't against defending America, but he also pushed the legalized drug agenda and apparently thinks it's a right to be hired with drugs in your system, even a cop or fireman. What level of impairment would make "your right" illegal,....no comment.
I will tell you, I'm all with the libertarian economic theory,.....it has been shown to work, for thousands of years. But the reluctance to "get involved" in foreign entanglements, just means the entanglers will be on your shore toot suit. I know the quote from George Washington, but a little more history will show we were fighting the Barbary Pirates almost immediately. The fights with Mexico and Cuba, among others were just because they were close to home, but today, we are a missile away from an attack from almost anyone. You have to stay involved or it will eventually come home to roost. A quick look at ISIS right now shows they are working on a coast to coast Caliphate in the Middle East and eventually, someone in the world will have to do something. Who do you think that will be? As far as I'm concerned, we are, right now, engaged in a perpetual war. It may take several different names with differing players, but make no mistake, the babies born today are raised up to kill the infidel. I don't rejoice when an errant bomb kills women and children, but realistically that's just one less bullet for later. My father knew his bombs from his B-24 were hitting private homes, hospitals and schools, but he knew if he bailed out, there was a good chance a 12 year old would stick a pitchfork in him as soon as he landed in a field.
The younger people that have seen what I've seen, still think they are idealistic and stick to the pure doctrine of libertarianism, but the reality is, wars need to be fought, dope is bad even for the people that don't harm others, and there is such a thing as right and wrong and those morals come from God. If we change morals, what morals will we keep? The morals of Molech and Baal where children were thrown in the fire? The morals of Sodom that was judged by God?
We can cut spending and taxes, and the size of government and agree on a balanced budget and printing money. I just can't embrace a philosophy that has NEVER WORKED.
For those that think it's never been tried, We have a libertarian right now that is allowing the world and the US to disintegrate because he doesn't want to get involved. Just look around and you will see what libertarians have wrought. The drug laws are a mess, and the world is erupting into chaos. The borders are disintegrating and they love it. Nationalism just gets in the way of economics and the adjusting of the wages downward to the lowest common denominator. Just think how grand it would be if we took in the $2 a day people to peel our grapes for us and wash our feet. If Obama would just adhere to their libertarianism in economics. Unfortunately, he is a Keynesian, another failed theory.
There are many libertarians in the Republican party, but that is only because they can't be elected on their own. Rand Paul will draw a percentage from conservatives and cause trouble for real conservatives and sap their money. Make him Treasury Secretary or something, but he will never be president. Right now, the Tea Party is a mixture of libertarians and conservatives. I will vote conservative and pick a candidate out of the Tea Party to do it. Pure libertarianism,.......NOPE!
So far you have said zero to me in regard to the facts I posted, you haven’t said anything at all about them.
The laws and policies of the federal government have a huge role, for instance abortion and gay marriage, and homosexual policy in regards to the military, federal employment and immigration, etc.
Never support a social liberal, non God fearing candidate at ANY level of office, because not only will he be pushing left wing social politics, but he might someday reach the Congress, or Senate, or Presidency and be making federal policy.
Also with Romney, part of the purpose of Romney was to help blend the rinos and libertarians in their fight against conservatism.
You realize there are multiple levels of government don’t you?
1. So which government entity are you talking about vis-a-vis dope laws?
2. Unless there this a spending cut there is no tax cut.
3. Are you nuts? What does tax policy have to do with drug laws?
Not really; they could adopt a no benefits
policy; or a benefit to one designated survivor for 20-years
policy.
and abortion also have to be decided on,
It was already decided federally: Roe v. Wade.
and immigration and foreign policy.
This is about the only one that actually is justified under the Constitution; congress has the authority to make a uniform law for immigration
.
By supporting drug control you are accepting Wickard v. Filburn as correct, as well as expansions thereof such as Raich, and therefore are at least endorsing tyrannical authoritarianism if not fully a big government type. (But it is natural that such a authoritarian government will expand and so you are functionally a big-government type.)
Government power has given us legal abortion and even pays for it. So your solution is more government power. You are a fool.
But the premise is flawed — dope is already legal, or more accurately the federal government does not have the legitimate authority to illegalize it. Even taking precedence *spit* the 18th Amendment had to be passed to give the federal government the authority to regulate alcohol; no such amendment exists with respect to drugs.
I’m not here to play fantasy with you and all the things you can imagine, we are dealing with a reality right now, and your politics are in opposition to rolling back the left’s and libertarian gains.
There was federal policy on abortion before Roe v Wade, and federal abortions being performed, and we have federal laws and policies supporting abortion right now just as we have alterations to federal marriage law that was written at the time of the constitution and even before it by the Continental congress, we conservatives oppose them and want to stop them, and you oppose us and our fight.
And I'm not saying that; what I am saying is that if your concern is rampant immorality then the answer is not the law, but Jesus.
I've had this discussion w/ Ansel12 several times, but he refuses to see the point insisting that the answer is more law… and law at the federal level.
How do you figure government power created abortion?
Do you think free market forces are what prevents it?
Abortion is either legal or illegal.
That's quite probable; however, we don't have a living Constitution that means whatever we want it to say — this is to say that we must respect the limits imposed by Constitution even, especially, when it hinders our own desires.
Most of these problems still aren't properly addressed in law; but in the lives of Christians.
As an example: do you think we would have half the problems [divorce, infidelity, homosexual-marriage, etc] if those that said that they were Christians treated marriage like something special/sacred in their own lives? Even if that is flawed and would have little impact on those numbers, do you think that such a moral stance would be a hindrance or a help in life WRT witnessing? (A single candle is more appreciated at midnight than in the noonday sun.)
No we haven't had that discussion many times, but as far as abortion and gay marriage etc. at the federal level, you oppose rolling back the recent federal laws on those, and changing to pro-life pro-marriage policies for the feds.
There is no state that tells the feds about marriage and abortion policy within it's own areas.
And never, never, never support a politician at any level, who fights like you do to protect social liberalism, no matter what level of office he is running for.
Now, lately it has become fashionable to promise to reduce government spending. So, the trick is to promise to reduce government spending in as general a way as possible without ever being specific enough to make any voter feel that his benefits are threatened because, again, the vast majority of voters do not want to cut any of the programs that benefit them or programs that they like.
There aren't many low-income food stamp mothers who want to cut food stamps. There aren't many unemployed folks who want to cut unemployment benefits. There aren't many Tea Party seniors who want to cut senior benefits.
People are people and politicians are politicians. It's no mystery why we are where we are.
There is nothing in the constitution that is forcing you to support abortion and gay marriage and homosexuality at the federal level, that is your own passionate politics.
You are fighting for the recent status quo of the left and libertarian gains at the federal level, and fighting us who want regain the lost ground against such things at the federal level.
Remember that the Congress was passing laws regarding marriage in federal employment in 1780, 1794, and 1798, and 1802.
The thing that takes discernment is Obama's social idea's are exactly libertarian, but his economics are straight out of Marx. Ergo, people say he's a socialist/Marxist. All the economic libertarianism in the world, can't save a country that murders people in the name of freedom, or economics. If we are forced to keep ObamaCare, you will soon see it going broke and to conserve money, we will start withholding treatments and drugs to certain people that don't "deserve" the largess from the "real" needy people. Social libertarianism is the same thinking of economic liberalism. Economic theory from Milton Freedman and social theory from the Bible is what works. Social libertarianism will break down and require laws to regulate it,...it's inevitable. All the trans- bathrooms for children at school, Heather has 2 mommies, now they want multiple wives, children have 3 parents, and on and on, it's all from "What do you care as long as it doesn't affect you". Man's heart is continually evil, who can know it. Eventually, it will affect you.
Some libertarians invoke the Founders, as if they believe the Founders were on their side. The foundation of the country was on individual freedom and freedom to worship God. Atheists weren't elected or revered much in those days. The laws were ALL based on Scripture. The founders wanted people left alone until they sinned against God and nature. None were libertarian to my knowledge.
Great!
This'll be fun.
If that be the case, then shouldn't the 2nd Amendment also be left to the States?
Traditionally the Bill of Rights applied only to the Federal government [read its prolog] — however, the construction of the Second is in the passive voice where the action being prohibited is the subject and therefore the actor is irrelevant. By the reading of the 10th Amendment infringing on the right to bear arms is thereby prohibited by it to the States
.
Another interesting fact is that the Bill of Rights amends the Constitution as further declaratory and restrictive clauses
— this means that the power of Congress is limited thereby and, logically, there can be no legitimate weapons/munitions tax.
How about the First Amendment?
The First amendment explicitly limits Congress
.
None of the several states have a Congress, but rather a legislature, assembly or somesuch as the legislative-branch; the application of the first amendments ought, therefore, to be a nullity — by accepting that the 14th Amendment makes the First amendment applicable to the States is to assert that there is some magic in incorporation
which alters the text to suit whims.
Since the equal protection clause will be used to support Gay Marriage contracts in the states that have outlawed the practice constitutionally at the state level, does it not cry out for a federal constitutional amendment remedy?
Interestingly the Fourteenth amendment isn't valid [alt doc]; but let's assume for a moment that it is — how would allowing States to define marriage themselves be denying equal protection? If the definition is applied uniformly then there is no error; only when exceptions are made does the protection become unequal.
Libertarians know that gay marriage at the federal level guarantees that they will get their gay marriage at the state level in time.
We were not going have a situation where Marines and Sailors and FBI men and millions of federal employees and immigrants were going to have to deal with being “family”, or “not family” during their careers of transfers and duty stations for very long, and libertarians know that.
I'm not supporting abortion or homosexual marriage at the federal level — you are a fool if that's what you think, as what I said federal government has no authority there
is not equivalent to the federal government should support them
.
Like that's not happening now?
You must not have been paying attention when Prop 8 hit the USSC and they dismissed it as the people of California have no standing
despite that the State's own Supreme Court had certified their standing. So, in essence the USSC said that the people have no interest in seeing their own state's Constitution upheld and that the federal judges declaring he amendment unconstitutional was right.
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