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'She didn't affirmatively say no': Silence means consent according to defense...(Steubenville rape)
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Posted on 03/12/2013 8:26:48 PM PDT by Morgana

FULL TITLE: 'She didn't affirmatively say no': Silence means consent according to defense in Ohio high school rape trial where passed out, drunken teenage girl was 'sexually assaulted' by multiple football players

Defense lawyers in the coming trial of two high school football players charged with raping a nearly passed-out-drunk 16-year-old girl are expected to argue on the issue of consent.

In the case that has shocked the nation, prosecutors state that the inebriated girl was taken to a number of parties by a group of drunk teenagers, supporting her to walk when she wasn't physically capable.

The prosecution claims that the group later sexually assaulted the girl while she lay unconscious.

But attorney Walter Madison, who represents one of the accused boys, argues she was drinking voluntarily and left willingly with the group of boys.

As reported by the Cleveland Trader Madison said: 'There's an abundance of evidence here that she was making decisions, cognitive choices.' 'She didn't affirmatively say no,' he stated.

(Excerpt) Read more at dailymail.co.uk ...


TOPICS: Chit/Chat
KEYWORDS: ohio; steubenville
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To: Lakeshark
"Are you suggesting she raped the boys, forcing them to have sex while she was passed out?"

Of course not, and I'm insulted you would think such a thing of a fellow FReeper!

I am asking questions: "what is rape"? "what is forced to have sex"? "what is passed out"?

Perhaps most important..."what really happened"???

IMHO, those answers are not at all clear, and this "rush to judgement" on the "football players" is not right. They are looking at possible criminal prison sentences, which is a high price to pay for posting their "party-time" activities with a quite possibly willing and equally stupid young woman on world-wide social media.

I would be be the first person to defend this girl, if there was evidence to show she was an innocent victim, kidnapped and attacked.

IF the victim was also completely lacking in responsible behavior (which seems probable), then that would mitigate the circumstances, although the whole incident is no less abhorant (sic).

I can only say...what were these kids thinkng???? ALL of them??? and why?! That's the real problem, I think.

101 posted on 03/12/2013 10:55:22 PM PDT by 88keys (never do nothing, unless it's the best strategy)
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To: papertyger; All
You dodged, you're still dodging. You ignored my questions because you couldn't answer them. Everyone can see that. Here they are again so the whole forum can see you can't answer them:

How in the world are you blaming a 16 year old girl for being raped multiple times while she is passed out? Did she deserve this because she didn't know how to handle alcohol? Did she deserve this because the football players doing this simply had to take advantage of her because being passed out means she's fair game? Did she deserve this because she's an unworthy human?

My gosh, you're so insightful, knowing that I'm shilling for "feminism", you're right, such glowing insights, such brilliance...../s

So put up or shut up, answer the questions, they're germane to your position that somehow we are treating these players unfairly. Also answer my other question since you think both sides were equally wrong: Did she rape the guys while passed out?

Okay, I've decided you're either drunk, stoned or clinically insane, incapable of discussing your own vapidity. Good night, I'm outta here. I'll see if you tried to grapple with the questions tomorrow, but I'm betting you won't, and once again, it'ws because you can't.

102 posted on 03/12/2013 10:58:30 PM PDT by Lakeshark (!)
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To: mnehring; papertyger; Morgana
Load of crap. The rapists used free will to attack her. They aren’t trees who she happened to run into.

Sure she was drunk, but that does not make her any less a victim.

Actually it makes her more of a victim. The fact that she intoxicated means she legally can't give consent.

103 posted on 03/12/2013 11:00:51 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: Politicalmom
You're an ignorant ass.

And you're a chauvanist cow.

Thus far, I have seen nothing on this thread that shows this girl is anything but the female equivalent of the guy who gets drunk and has sex with an embarrassing girl.

The difference between us is you want to protect her stupidity and crucify the boys for their stupidity.

104 posted on 03/12/2013 11:05:05 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: 88keys
I'd clearly say that multiple boys having sex with a 16 year old girl after she is passed out is rape, and clearly so. Passed out is a picture of the girl further up in the thread being carried by two of the boys.

Now, if the reporting is all wrong, that's a different issue. If the reporting is all wrong, then there is a different discussion.

As I said to another poster, this is not anything near a "both sides were stupid" construct. Another poster said it most clearly, there is stupid and there is evil. If what is being reported is correct, then the girl was stupid, but the boys were evil in taking advantage of her stupidity.

My very sarcastic post to you should have demonstrated that......

Sorry, but what is being reported is indefensible. If as you think possible, if the reporting is wrong, then it's a different issue.

105 posted on 03/12/2013 11:08:25 PM PDT by Lakeshark (!)
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To: Jonty30
Really? You can’t read between the lines?

If the Zimmerman case taught me anything, it's to never render a judgement based on press accounts.

106 posted on 03/12/2013 11:10:25 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: Nifster
remind me to never date someone like you....bleeeech

I wouldn't have you.

My wife is intelligent.

107 posted on 03/12/2013 11:16:08 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Fair enough, but if I am ever accused of a crime you’ll forgive me if I don’t ask you to represent me.


108 posted on 03/12/2013 11:18:02 PM PDT by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does.)
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To: papertyger

obviously she isn’t


109 posted on 03/12/2013 11:28:26 PM PDT by Nifster
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To: Lakeshark
You ignored my questions because you couldn't answer them. Everyone can see that. Here they are again so the whole forum can see you can't answer them:

Do you have a reading comprehension disability? I told you exactly why I didn't answer your question. Do you think because I told you why I didn't answer "when did you quit beating your wife" that "everyone" now thinks you're the second coming of Clarence Darrow?

Lucky you went to bed. You need to sleep off your delusions of grandeur.

110 posted on 03/12/2013 11:32:15 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: Nifster
obviously she isn’t

When you can boast a twenty five year marriage, your own successful business, two Peabody awards, two Emmys, a home on the golf course, and headhunters trying to get you to move to NYC, you can question her intelligence. Until then, you're just a petulant little cow.

111 posted on 03/12/2013 11:41:10 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: Lakeshark
How in the world are you blaming a 16 year old girl for being raped multiple times while she is passed out?

No one is "blaming" the victim for anything. Rather, it's quite possible she contributed to the circumstances she ended up in, whatever they were (unknown/unproven at this point), and she didn't know how to keep herself out of harm's way.

Did she deserve this because she didn't know how to handle alcohol?

Of course not! But why did no one make sure this didn't happen? Her friends told her not to go...but she went. Was this the first time she'd had many drinks?

Did she deserve this because the football players doing this simply had to take advantage of her because being passed out means she's fair game?

NO, this girl did not "deserve" any of this. I think she made a very big mistake that she could/would have eventually recovered from had it not gone "viral" on the social media. Times have not changed that much, and these "football players" and B.M.O.C. - types can usually have whoever they want, just for the asking. They obviously behaved very badly, but "girls" need to be wary of being "groupies", too, and why didn't anyone watch out for this vulnerable young woman? Or did they try, and she didn't listen?

Did she deserve this because she's an unworthy human?

That's ridiculous! The Bible teaches that all humans are unworthy just by nature, and whatever your opinion of that, it's just plain and simple that actions have consequences. If the girl had not gone to the party, if she had not gone off with the boys (a.k.a. "the football players"), none of this would have happened. She reportedly has no memory of the incident, and I hope it stays that way, whether she really knows and is covering up, or she genuinely doesn't remember.

I would just add, be very careful about sourcing the news reports of what did happen...IMHO, it's just not clear!

112 posted on 03/12/2013 11:47:59 PM PDT by 88keys (never do nothing, unless it's the best strategy)
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To: Politicalmom

Windows Defender says that site tried to infect my computer.


113 posted on 03/13/2013 3:15:47 AM PDT by BinaryBoy (Socialism is slavery)
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To: Jonty30

no booze puts a woman into incapacitation within a few minutes of ingestion unless it is laced with something
________________________________________________

It used to be called “roofies”


114 posted on 03/13/2013 4:34:22 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: 88keys

not necessarily - however pictures and video don’t lie.

I also think there were kids and residents of Steubenville that were supplying Anonymous with info.

Whether they show up at the trial or not will be interesting.

I also think what is missing on this thread is the fact that the girl didn’t just wake up and claim she was raped.
She has no memory of the evening.

After leaving her unconscious in one person’s yard - urinating on her - and continuing to party at one location (which is when that video was made)
They loaded her up again (for the 2nd or 3rd time) and dumped her in her parents yard.

Her parents found her and brought her in.
In a short time they received phone calls about pictures on cell phones, and internet. Kids had been tweeting during the night too.
That’s when her parents took her to the hospital.

Anonymous recovered some of that internet activity.


115 posted on 03/13/2013 4:43:12 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: papertyger

When you can boast a twenty five year marriage, your own successful business, two Peabody awards, two Emmys, a home on the golf course, and headhunters trying to get you to move to NYC
____________________________________________

When you can boast you can finally identify rape, get back to us...

BTW No Nobel as yet ???


116 posted on 03/13/2013 4:47:57 AM PDT by Tennessee Nana
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To: Morgana

I have too much respect for myself to be 2nd. 3rd. or any other figure in a rape.
When you stand in line to have sex with any woman, drunk, blind or crazy you aren’t much of a man. You have committed yourself to the act of an animal.From a health perspective it is wrong to mix your bodily fluids with so many others not to mention hygiene.

It is probably safe to say that the boys were drunk also.
Is their guilt any worse than hers for being drunk or is it the same.If we use drunkenness for her excuse , is it not theirs also?

Then I would need to look at this girls background.
Was she a Virgin before this rape? A Honor student with a clean reputation? Or was she known in school as the class slut? How many times before has she gone with the boys and gotten drunk? Never?

This story is wrong, the boys were wrong and and Rape is always wrong, multiple rape even more so, but before we decide their fate a fair trial with all the evidence is needed.

The countries morals are going downhill fast, and what is happening when a group of boys with no pride in themselves want to wallow in a trough ,and degrade themselves by fornicating in a group, when none of them can get laid on their own with a willing participant.As if there arent enough of those around these days.

What a pathetic group of young men.


117 posted on 03/13/2013 4:59:57 AM PDT by Venturer
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To: papertyger

Apparently she was ‘punched’ quite a lot...too bad you don’t seem capable of understanding that.


118 posted on 03/13/2013 5:08:02 AM PDT by stuartcr ("I have habits that are older than the people telling me they're bad for me.")
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To: 88keys

At one point Anonymous had a page “Steubenville Files” with a big dump of info and their own interpretation of events.

When I went to find it for you there was a notice from the blog host that the page had been removed.

I don’t know if they have found another outlet for posting it.

They dubbed it Operation Red Roll.

They are on twitter on #OccupySteubenville and #OpRedRoll

If only half of what they say about Cody Saltsman is true, then that kid is one bad actor.

There is a racial element here too...white and black boys involved, but the only ones on trial are the black kids


119 posted on 03/13/2013 5:12:18 AM PDT by Scotswife
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To: papertyger
That's what equality looks like.

The young men where enough in control of the facilities to take actions. Witnesses say she had to be propped up....

Why am I even arguing. You are full it garbage, man. The idea that the men have no responsibility is garbage. If the guys had all been passed out drunk and some gay dudes came and bum raped them I doubt you would be defending them. That is the equality for you. But beyond that there is a double standard for a reason. Guys have the keys to a car when they drink. The car is in their pants. Dudes don't get knocked up if they get drunk and screw someone. A drunk guy still has to get his keys and get in the car (and I ain't talking about cars). Where as the girl just has to pass out and get 'hit' by the 'drunk driver'. Action causes responsibility. Inaction does not. They both drank so that is not what is a stake here. After drinking she just lay there and they did crimes.

They very idea that the men have no responsibility because SHE was drunk is so far beyond stupid it is astounding.
120 posted on 03/13/2013 5:52:53 AM PDT by TalonDJ
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To: papertyger
Do you think because I told you why I didn't answer "when did you quit beating your wife" that "everyone" now thinks you're the second coming of Clarence Darrow?

That might just be your dumbest response in a series of really stupid posts. You ignored them because you couldn't answer them.

121 posted on 03/13/2013 6:30:45 AM PDT by Lakeshark (!)
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To: 88keys
No one is "blaming" the victim for anything.

On the contrary, the poster you are defending obviously is blaming her.

I think she made a very big mistake that she could/would have eventually recovered from had it not gone "viral" on the social media. Times have not changed that much

The story says she was passed out then raped multiple times. Do you really think before social media this girl would have easily recovered? That's simply not true.

That's ridiculous!

Of course that's ridiculous, but so is the argument by anyone defending the boys who raped her.

I would just add, be very careful about sourcing the news reports of what did happen...

Like I said, we're commenting on what's being reported, not on some grand theory that this is a way (as the other truly moronic poster thinks) for the radical feminists in the press to get back at boys. There is no hint that there is a reasonable side of the story, like in the Zimmerman story. There is just a public defender claiming something that is fairly absurd, as lawyers often do. I wrote post #99 about an experience I witnessed in high school, you might want to comment on the scenario I made.

Thanks for trying to answer the questions.

122 posted on 03/13/2013 6:54:38 AM PDT by Lakeshark (!)
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To: papertyger
Just as I have learned "rape" is any sex the girl regrets later. The reason rape was so brutal to prove back in the seventies was because it was the standard "out" for pregnant girls in the fifties. What always amuses me is how women want "equality" right up until that equality puts them at risk of "losing."

This story is not about "sex the girl regrets later," or girls getting pregnant in the fifties, nor is it about idiot leftist women clamoring for "equality." This is about a young girl who was passed-out drunk who was brutalized by a group of human animals. Of course her young, dumb mind made a very bad choice to drink like she did in the company of losers, but that does not make it legal for a group of punks to gang rape her.

123 posted on 03/13/2013 7:02:04 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: papertyger

PS: All this assumes, of course, that the story is true. If not, then maybe we have another Duke Lacrosse case. Who knows?


124 posted on 03/13/2013 7:05:31 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: presidio9

This is reprehensible, but I don’t see what your point in posting it is. Is it not the duty of defense council to make the best case it can for the defendents? As far as I can tell, they are the only ones blaming the victim.


Very good points. If the defense doesn’t do this, there is a retrial.


125 posted on 03/13/2013 7:06:16 AM PDT by PeterPrinciple
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To: Paleo Conservative
The fact that she intoxicated means she legally can't give consent.

That is why those two need to start lifting weights. They'll have a new address soon.

126 posted on 03/13/2013 8:21:36 AM PDT by Darren McCarty (If most people were more than keyboard warriors, we might have won the election)
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To: Morgana

[’She didn’t affirmatively say no’]

Questions they asked:

“After you are unconcious, do you mind if we drag your body around to our parties and use it like a sex doll?

unable to answer)

“Do you mind if videotape it so we can relive the fun we had?

(unable to answer)

Do you mind if we pee on you too?

(unable to answer)

“Do you mind, after we are done with your body, we just throw your body on your parents lawn”

(unable to answer)

“OK guys, she didn’t say no, let the party begin”


127 posted on 03/13/2013 8:36:39 AM PDT by RetSignman ("...a Republic if you can keep it")
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To: papertyger
She's no more a "victim" than a drunk driver that wraps their car around a tree...

So, a kid does something stupid and becomes a participant rather than a victim? If I have too much to drink, leave my car at the pub and walk home and get mugged on the way, was I a non-victim too?

128 posted on 03/13/2013 8:38:03 AM PDT by JimRed (Excise the cancer before it kills us; feed &water the Tree of Liberty! TERM LIMITS, NOW & FOREVER!)
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To: EEGator
hey hey HEY.

*I* am the disgusting pig, around here!!

129 posted on 03/13/2013 8:44:40 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Republicans have the same policies as the Democrats, except for the part where they win elections.)
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To: WXRGina

I live fairly close to this town and as soon as this allegation came to light there was immediate reaction to it pertaining to ANOTHER rape that had happened months before. Another girl and one of these same boys was said to be involved. There were also rumblings that these two are not the only ones who were victimized. The hashtag “rape crew” was also out there being used either by the actual boys or by some of the friends around them.
So no, we do not know the whole story, but to completely dismiss or defend the actions of the boys is crazy. The trial starts today and I hope there will be answers found for all the families involved. Makes me sad for our youth.


130 posted on 03/13/2013 8:48:47 AM PDT by theycallmemom
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To: Lazamataz

Sorry, I should have pinged you.


131 posted on 03/13/2013 9:02:37 AM PDT by EEGator
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To: EEGator

Using the words “disgusting pig” in a post automatically pings me.


132 posted on 03/13/2013 9:03:47 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Republicans have the same policies as the Democrats, except for the part where they win elections.)
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To: RetSignman

Very good RetSignman!

Except you left out:

“Do you mind that we are all underage and drunk so please don’t tell our parents that we got booze”.


133 posted on 03/13/2013 9:15:26 AM PDT by Morgana (Always a bit of truth in dark humor.)
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To: Lazamataz

May I be added to that ping list?


134 posted on 03/13/2013 9:15:51 AM PDT by EEGator
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To: EEGator

Another Satisfied Customer!(tm)


135 posted on 03/13/2013 9:29:17 AM PDT by Lazamataz (Republicans have the same policies as the Democrats, except for the part where they win elections.)
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To: theycallmemom

Yes, it’s terribly sad, tragic. Our world is walking in the dark.


136 posted on 03/13/2013 9:45:14 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: papertyger

I hope you have no children


137 posted on 03/13/2013 10:56:17 AM PDT by Nifster
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To: WXRGina

Our local news website had an article up about this case. The Steubenville officials held a news conference. The were not worried about finding justice or the damage to the girl. NOPE They were worried about the bad rap this trial was giving the city. A city who does not have a great reputation to start with, what with all the drug busts and shootings. UNBELIEVABLE!!


138 posted on 03/13/2013 11:04:32 AM PDT by theycallmemom
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To: theycallmemom

Sick, sick, sick! You’re right—UNBELIEVABLE!


139 posted on 03/13/2013 11:35:10 AM PDT by WXRGina (The Founding Fathers would be shooting by now.)
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To: BinaryBoy

I’ve been there repeatedly for months, and never had a problem.


140 posted on 03/13/2013 12:31:27 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Liberalism. Ideas so great they have to be mandatory.-FReeper Osage Orange)
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To: Scotswife

Not to mention that the possible instigator, her former boyfriend and son of the local prosecutor(?)called the girl’s father to gloat about what happened to her.


141 posted on 03/13/2013 12:32:53 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Liberalism. Ideas so great they have to be mandatory.-FReeper Osage Orange)
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To: Scotswife

No, there was only one black kid. The other one on trial is white.


142 posted on 03/13/2013 12:34:23 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Liberalism. Ideas so great they have to be mandatory.-FReeper Osage Orange)
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To: RetSignman

Excellent summation.


143 posted on 03/13/2013 12:37:26 PM PDT by Tijeras_Slim
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To: Politicalmom

I see the problem. You left out an ‘e’. You must have meant
http://www.prinniefied.com


144 posted on 03/13/2013 12:51:25 PM PDT by BinaryBoy (Socialism is slavery)
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To: BinaryBoy

Oops. *Blush*

SORRY!!


145 posted on 03/13/2013 1:04:02 PM PDT by Politicalmom (Liberalism. Ideas so great they have to be mandatory.-FReeper Osage Orange)
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To: Darren McCarty
That is why those two need to start lifting weights. They'll have a new address soon.

In Texas, we outlawed having weight lifting in prisons, to keep prisoners from leaving prison stronger than when they came in. We figured it's not fair to ordinary citizens for freshly released prisoners to be in better condition than the criminal class that would prey on them.

146 posted on 03/13/2013 6:00:04 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: Darren McCarty; Admin Moderator
In Texas, we outlawed having weight lifting in prisons, to keep prisoners from leaving prison stronger than when they came in. We figured it's not fair to ordinary citizens for freshly released prisoners to be in better condition than the criminal class that would prey on them.

I meant to say that in Texas we don't want the criminal class to be in better shape than ordinary law abiding citizens.

I sure wish it were possible to edit comments on Free Republic for 30 minutes to an hour after they are posted.

147 posted on 03/13/2013 6:04:55 PM PDT by Paleo Conservative (Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not really out to get you.)
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To: Scotswife
After leaving her unconscious in one person’s yard - urinating on her - and continuing to party at one location (which is when that video was made) They loaded her up again (for the 2nd or 3rd time) and dumped her in her parents yard.

You are willing to send boys to prison based on hearsay evidence just because its video taped?

Clearly they were mocking her without mercy, but apart from your desire to destroy them and protect her, I see no reason to take their hyperbole about raping her any more seriously than their hyperbole about her being "dead" when she manifestly was not.

To my knowledge, we have no first hand evidence of what transpired "in coitous," and apart from such evidence I don't see how a charge of rape can be sustained.

148 posted on 03/13/2013 6:23:47 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: stuartcr
Apparently she was ‘punched’ quite a lot...too bad you don’t seem capable of understanding that.

Oh I'm quite capable of understanding: I just don't agree. But don't let that stand in the way of your "two minutes hate."

149 posted on 03/13/2013 6:31:39 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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To: TalonDJ
If the guys had all been passed out drunk and some gay dudes came and bum raped them I doubt you would be defending them.

You would be wrong if the guy intentionally went bar hopping, and perhaps wven flirting, with them knowing full well said gay dudes were looking to get "lucky."

Action causes responsibility. Inaction does not.

Tell that to your creditors when you haven't paid them. Perhaps "due diligence" is a foreign concept to you?

150 posted on 03/13/2013 6:47:44 PM PDT by papertyger (It's only "hate" if you're conservative.)
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