Pastor Sentenced To 2 Years In Prison For Teaching That Parents Should Spank Their Children

The American Dream ^ | May 25, 2012 | The American Dream

[daniel1212]

Pastor Sentenced To 2 Years In Prison For Teaching That Parents Should Spank Their Children

Do you believe that parents should be able to spank their children?  Do you ever express that opinion to others?  If so, then you could be sent to prison.  Sadly, that is exactly what happened to one pastor up in Wisconsin recently.  A minister named Philip Caminiti was sentenced to 2 years in prison for simply teaching that parents should spank their children when they misbehave.  Please note that Caminiti was not accused of spanking anyone or of physically hurting anyone.  He was put in prison simply for his speech.  He was put in prison simply for what he was teaching others to do.  Whether you agree with spanking or not, this should be incredibly sobering for all of us.  Increasingly, speech is being penalized in the United States.  Much of the time, the focus of the attacks by the forces of political correctness is on religious speech.  If this trend continues, many of you that are reading this article might be put in jail for the things that you say in the coming years.

***Please Note: I am not defending anything that Phil Caminiti does or teaches.  In fact, a lot of things that he teaches are dead wrong.  What I am alarmed about is that a minister was put into prison solely for things that he said.  If they will do that to him, how soon will it be before they start putting other ministers in prison?***

When many of us were growing up, once in a while our parents would take out a belt or a wooden paddle and give us a paddling on the behind when we did something wrong.

Was there anything wrong with that?

Of course not.

Yes, there is real child abuse that goes on out there, but in the vast majority of instances spanking does not do any lasting physical harm.  Rather, it benefits the child because it helps them learn what is right and what is wrong.

I know that when I got a licking on the behind as a child that helped me to remember not to do the same thing again.

But Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi was absolutely horrified that some parents would actually use a wooden spoon to spank their little children when they misbehaved.

Perhaps that judge should actually try to spank someone with a wooden spoon some time.  You simply cannot do much damage with a wooden spoon.

Instead of going after the parents who were doing the spanking, prosecutors chose to go after the pastor instead.  They claimed that Caminiti was "the spoke in the wheel of this conspiracy".

Even after Caminiti leaves prison, he will be forbidden from having any contact with his old church....

Caminiti will be on extended supervision for six years after his release from prison. Despite objections on constitutional grounds by Caminiti's lawyers, Sumi ordered that he not have any contact with the Aleitheia Bible Church and have no leadership role in any church.

What in the world is happening to this country?

Criminal predators are literally eating the faces off of people, and yet authorities want to go after pastors that are encouraging their congregations to follow the teachings of the Bible?

Have we stepped into a really bizarre episode of The Twilight Zone?

Sadly, this is not the only example of how our free speech is under attack these days.

Up in New York, a new bill was recently introduced that would outlaw all "mean-spirited and baseless political attacks".

I think that would cover a whole lot of people that leave comments on my blog.

The following is how a recent article by Kurt Nimmo described what this new law would require....

New York state government is attempting to pass the measure in both the Senate and the Assembly. The legislation has been referred to the Codes Committee in the Senate, and the Government Operations Committee in the Assembly.

Both proposals are identical and would effect messages posted on message boards, blogs, social networks, and “any other discussion site where people can hold conversations in the form of posted messages.” The law would require websites to post email addresses for “removal requests, clearly visible in any sections where comments are posted.” Those demanding the removal of content they find objectionable, however, would have their anonymity protected.

“Had the internet been around in the late 1700s, perhaps the anonymously written Federalist Papers would have to be taken down unless Alexander Hamilton, James Madison and John Jay revealed themselves,” notes David Kravets, writing for Wired.

Will we soon see laws such as this nationwide?

Will all blogs and websites soon be at the mercy of the politically correct police?

Up in Buffalo, New York it is apparently now against the law to hand out Christian tracts on a public sidewalk.  At least that is what one man was told recently when he attempted to hand out tracts outside of an Italian heritage festival.  The following is from a recent WorldNetDaily article....

While handing out tracts to willing recipients on a public street during a public festival, Owen was approached by a police officer who declined to identify himself but told him that the Buffalo Police Department is “the law” and he should stop handing out tracts.

According to the lawsuit: “Subsequently, another police officer, Officer Slomka, arrived on the scene. She quickly informed Owen that they could not hand out tracts in the festival and explained that the prohibition was ‘by our orders.’ Owen asked for her name, and she replied: ‘Slomka, write it down.’ Owen advised that he believed the tracts to be free speech; nonplussed, Officer Slomka reiterated that they couldn’t hand out tracts there and had to go outside of the festival area to continue with their expressive activity.”

Then, “Owen inquired as to whether they would be arrested if they continued to hand out tracts in the festival area, to which, Officer Slomka replied: ‘Yes.’”

That almost makes me angry enough to take a trip over to Buffalo and hand out tracts right outside the police station.

Even if you do not ever distribute literature, you should be alarmed at how our freedom of speech is being eroded.

The truth is that whenever anyone has their freedom of speech attacked it is an attack on all of us.

If we are not careful, we are going to end up just like Canada.

At one high school up in Canada recently, a student was suspended from school for a week for wearing a shirt with the following message....

"Life is wasted without Jesus"

The student was told that the shirt was "hate talk" and that he would be suspended for the rest of the year if he tried to wear it to school again.

They are coming for our free speech ladies and gentlemen.

They are not going to be satisfied until they have either shut all of us up or put all of us in prison.

It is imperative that we all stand up for free speech while we still can.  Once our freedom of speech is gone, the loss of the rest of our freedoms will only be a matter of time.

[daniel1212]

Link to full story here

[Vaduz]

Vast majority of instances spanking does not do any lasting physical harm.

And lession is learned,spare the rod spoil the child.
Look at all the brats we have today,pick an age any age.

[urbanpovertylawcenter]

Will Wisconsin jail a Muslim Imam for a similar teaching?
Doubt it.

[kenmcg]

The judge should be thrown in jail for violating the pastor’s right of free speech.

[kenmcg]

The judge should be thrown in jail for violating the pastor’s right of free speech.

[cuban leaf]

I wasn’t in the courtroom and therefore have no opinion on this other than to say he was not charged, found guilty and sentenced simply for teaching spanking - at least according to the story.

As is true with many of the “they’ve gone too far” stories, this one may contain details that would cause even a normal “spanking advocate” to agree with the verdict.

[LastNorwegian]

And his freedom to practice his religion...

And once again we see the failure of conservative leaders who constantly shy away from these issues.

[daniel1212]

Note that “Black Earth” refers to the location of Aleitheia Bible Church, where the man pastored.

I think infants are too young to be spanked, but once they understand cause and effect for actions, there is a place for such. And the physical place is usually on the behind, and my dad, thank God, used his hands, which hurt more than i think a wooden spoon would.

The same hands that hug (and they should) must also sometimes spank, and every child is different.

But the western liberal minds, who want a Garden of Eden without God, and without moral laws and that which the Fall requires, would charge God with child abuse for His loving and necessary discipline.

“For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. “ (1 Corinthians 11:31-32)

Who/what will be next? ping

[MrB]

There is no state in the USA where spanking is illegal,
though almost all social workers believe it is,
and will “enforce” this to the full extent of their ability.

There is a fairly new legal group whose mission it is to protect parental rights against social workers who seek to remove children from parents’ “weird Christian influence”.

See “heritage defense” for more info.

They claim that no client of theirs has had any social worker enter their homes, nor has any child of their clients been “interviewed” by a social worker.

[metmom]

ping

[daniel1212]

See my #8 comment. While there are excesses, failure to discipline is also a form of child abuse, and under the liberal idea that man is basically good, and that people do bad things because of men like George Bush (who, despite his faults, expressed a basic moral view of good vs evil that the liberal ethos cannot tolerate), this is encouraged.

[daniel1212]

Good question, and if the man had preached against Islam then that would also weigh against him.

[chae]

This was posted before. As I recall, he was saying that infants as young as either 2 or 6 months old should be spanked with wooden dowel rods for reasons such as excessive crying. The charge as conspiracy to commit child abuse and members of the church are also charged with child abuse. And anyone who advocates hitting an infant for any reason is evil.

[raybbr]

I would never use a wooden spoon. If you think it wouldn’t hurt as much go ahead, whack yourself on the thigh with one and the hit your other thigh with your hand. Let us know.

[sickoflibs]

Wow, some poster boy for free speech, beating infants, who is next?? Jim Jones?

“ The victims included 12 children ranging in age from infancy to 6 years old, according to the sheriff's office.
During interviews with detectives, Phil expressed his belief that the Bible dictates the use of a rod over a hand to punish children. He stated that children only a few months old are ‘worthy’ of the rod and that by ‘one and a half months,’ a child is old enough to be spanked,” according to the sheriff's office release.
“Throughout the investigation, the church members were open with detectives about their ‘Spare the rod, spoil the child’ philosophy. They described using wooden dowels and wooden spoons on the bare skin of children, starting as young as 2 months old,” the sheriff's office said.
“If you spank early and it is done right, then kids will be happy and obedient,” Philip Caminiti said, according to the criminal complaint.
According to the sheriff's office, the dowels were described as being 12-18 inches long with a diameter about the size of a quarter. The parents told detectives that “redness and bruising” were the “common effects of the spankings.”
“One person described the children being emotional, grumpy or crying as behaviors that would constitute a spanking with a dowel,” according to the sheriff's office.
“Three sets of parents are among the six others charged, including two of Philip Caminiti’s children and their spouses: Matthew Caminiti, 27, and his wife, Alina, 24; and Maria J. Stephenson, 29, and her husband, Timothy, 28. Also charged are Andrea L. Wick, 26, and Timothy J. Wick, 27.
The children often were punished when they cried or failed to sit still during church services, a former church member told authorities. “Phil was very strict about children being quiet during church,” the complaint states.”

Wisconsin Church Members Charged With Abusing Infants

[sickoflibs]

see : #15

[Westbrook]

Daddy’s Hands ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOAjAWToYMI

[daniel1212]

“the sentence, in part, was intended to send a message that
child abuse will not be tolerated
and to prevent Caminiti from once again teaching members of his church to spank their children with wooden objects to cure them of selfishness.”

Judicial activism anyone? Discipline selfishness (note that infants are too young for this i think, as i said, but that was not the only objection)?

Note this is Wisconsin. Is it not selfish to demand the government “forgive” all student loans (which presently only occurs if they work 10 years for the gov., or a secular non-profit, while making their payments), and take care of everyone who (votes Democratic) sees themselves as a victim of the Biblical ethos that the laborer is worthy of his wage, and that charity calls for a positive response to become a helper of others.

BTW, i originally picked up this story from http://www.newsforchristians.com/, which has many stories pertinent to or faith.

[Vaduz]

****vast majority of instances**** spanking does not do any lasting physical harm.

Dr. Spock was wrong,note today’s brats.

[raybbr]

Thanks for that music video. Reminds me of what fathers are for...

Me and my sons a few years ago. I just realized that there are few pictures of my hands with my sons. I use my hands all the time for work. I used them to spank my sons when they needed it. I ALWAYS talk to them after I spank them and tell them I love them. I told them why they got spanked. I always comforted them after a time so they would always know that I did not spank them out of anger or because of some power trip.

[sickoflibs]

Bad example,

This horrific story reframed with a totally mislreading title just makes them look silly and hurt’s their cause. It makes them look like they agree with torturing babies.

[txrefugee]

Yet public schools give homosexuals and their agenda freedom to promote their lifestyle, or death-style, to children.

America is doomed by evil such as this.

[MrB]

They’re using the fringe case of spanking infants to punish parents who use corporal punishment on kids of appropriate age.

[sonofagun]

sickoflibs - you have the patience of Job.

[daniel1212]

As i expressed, the church is not without fault in its teaching, but the judge’s ruling extends beyond using wooden spoons (it also calls them dowels) to spank infants, but extends to such child discipline at higher ages. I do not think wooden spoons would have been much of a deterrent for me, but i honestly cannot remember anything before about 6.

While infants do not know how to exercise moral judgment, and evangelicals like Dobson do not sanction spanking them, yet they can learn at an early age how to “train” their parents to come by crying every time they want something, which is not to be encouraged (not by spanking, but not always responding) for less than real needs, while rewards for good behavior can be progressively learned quite early.

[daniel1212]

“I would never use a wooden spoon. If you think it wouldn’t hurt as much go ahead, whack yourself on the thigh with one and the hit your other thigh with your hand.”

Seriously, that is hardly much to me (at 5.5, 130lbs), and instead i used an adjustable wrench which still is not much. And my dad spanked hard, and i grew up doing things like chopping down big trees with an axe, and playing tackle football on grass fields with much larger guys.

Thank God i could, and with no ill effects, but what is harmful is a lack of affirmation, which my parents suffered from. For as i said (transposed), the hand that spanks must also hug.

[Kaslin]

There is a huge difference between spanking a child and beating a child, but the left is to stupid to see it. No wonder kids become criminals

[Gilbo_3]

This horrific story reframed with a totally mislreading title just makes them look silly and hurt’s their cause. It makes them look like they agree with torturing babies.

SOL has a kncack for reading the tea leaves of public/ploitical reactions to the details of these kinds of stories...

sadly, although the underlying free speech/religion issues will be trampled, the Jim Jones angle will be the highlight that everyone remembers...

but rev wright is not to be questioned by 'our' side...

[daniel1212]

That is what i see.

[daniel1212]

Oh, but look how terrified the children seem of their dad! (Good picture -may God bless them).

[Ohioan]

The parallels between those whom we mistakenly call "Liberals," and the Bolsheviks & Nazis of the 20th Century, grow ever clearer.

All three groups reflected what we have identified as a Compulsion For Uniformity. Dare we even ask a just God to forgive us, if we fail to get these crackpot fanatics out of positions to do mischief!

William Flax

[cuban leaf]

—There is no state in the USA where spanking is illegal,—

I understand. But we all know that child abuse is illegal in all states.

So, the question in this case is when did a court think it crossed the line between “spanking” and “Child abuse”.

I was not there so I don’t know. The only reason for my original post is that I have been baited too many times with articles that sound like an outrage only to find out, when I have all the facts, that they actually make sense.

I don’t know which this is - yet - but it is clearly not a simple case of “guy spanks kid and goes to jail”.

[yldstrk]

Subject was encouraging discipline of 2 month olds, I am on the judge’s side. Sorry. Y’all think it’s so cool to whale on people littler than you. Weird.

[MrB]

The “interview” before any spanking:

Did you know you were not supposed to do X?
yes
Did you do X?
yes
Did you know you’d get spanked for breaking the rule?
yes

OK, that’s why you’re being spanked.

[Carry_Okie]

I am stunned that the judge thinks this ruling will stand.

[metmom]

I would never use a wooden spoon. If you think it wouldn’t hurt as much go ahead, whack yourself on the thigh with one and the hit your other thigh with your hand. Let us know.

My mother used the wooden spoon and my father his hand and my mother's spankings did not hurt as much as my father's. The wooden spoon would break long before it hit with the amount of force that my father could administer with his hand.

Besides, once we learned, all she'd have to do is rattle the wooden spoons in the drawer and we'd all shape up really quick.

[MrB]

Social services exists in order to protect children from abuse and neglect.

As with all human institutions though, they get infested with worldly people who are under the influence of the prince of this world, and their purpose gets twisted to serve him instead of serve good.

Too often, “abuse and neglect” get defined to include “raising kids in a Christian household”.

[Westbrook]

Please, please, PLEASE listen to the sermons on this web site.

http://www.ephrataministries.org/listen.a5w

The sermons are by Denny Kenaston, who teaches that Obedience comes from Blessing, and that you can spank your child in love. There is a big difference between a spanking and a beating.

There is a lot more in this series of sermons: husband and wife, modesty, and so much more that has been lost in this prurient, vulgar salacious culture.

I promise that you and your family will be blessed immensely if you listen to these sermons and put into practice the loving messages this precious brother conveys.

[9YearLurker]

To me, a “spanking” is done with an open hand. To whip a child with a wooden dowel is a “beating”.

[reagan_fanatic]

If they were here right now, my Grandparents would look at this nation in abject horror at what it has become.

[Above My Pay Grade]

That is my impression as well. I think there are 2 issues here:

1) Was the spanking that he advocated actually abuse? From the articles I've read, it seems that it was. The children involved were between 2 months old and 5 years old, and I believe they were bruised by the spanking with wooden dowels. The idea of beating a 2 month old baby with a wooden dowel for the “crime” of crying seems insane to me.

2) Is advocating this behavior a crime or should only those who actually administered the beatings be charged. There are certainly free speech and freedom or religion questions.

I think it comes down to how much influence and/or control did the pastor have over the parents. If some person (pastor or otherwise) set up a blog where he advocated such punishment, to a general audience, I think it would almost certainly be protected as free speech and perhaps as exercise of religion. Plus, it would be difficult to see how such an individual could be held responsible for the actions of strangers following his bad advice.

On the other end of the spectrum, if a husband ordered his wife to beat their infant with a dowel and watched while she did it, I'd say he'd be just as responsible as she was.

This case falls somewhere in between. If he was constantly insisting that parents beat their very, young children, and was exerting a great deal of pressure, using his authority as their pastor, then he might be guilty of conspiracy. If he merely advocated such behavior in a more general way, he should probably not be held criminally responsible.

[daniel1212]

Posting articles as this does foster discussion, and was not meant to sanction all that the pastor did. You are right about the danger due to the infant aspect, but as said, the ruling was broader than just that, and is not the first time charges have been brought, or laws sought* against principled child discipline of those old enough to know "to refuse the evil, and choose the good." And which uses real abuse to negate a balanced form of child-rearing, in which there can be some physical consequence for choosing wrong,m and rewards and affirmation for doing right, and instead a a different from of child “abuse” is often promoted, that leads to the victim-entitlement mentality.

• French lawmaker wants to outlaw spanking 18 European countries already have laws in place against spanking children

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33948866/ns/world_news-europe/t/french-lawmaker-wants-outlaw-spanking/

• Brazil bill would outlaw parental spankings of children. SAO PAULO -- In Brazil, a swat to your child's bottom could soon get you slapped with a warning.

President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva sent a bill to Congress on Wednesday proposing that Brazil join the two dozen or so countries around the world that have moved to curb spanking.

While a law on the books already makes it illegal to abuse children, the new measure explicitly prohibits parents and guardians from using corporal punishment. http://www.oregonlive.com/health/index.ssf/2010/07/brazil_bill_would_outlaw_paren.html

• Massachusetts Lawmakers Seek to Outlaw Spanking Children

November 28th, 2007 by Halli

A cadre of Massachusetts hypocrites is spearheading an effort to outlaw spanking of children by parents.

Of course, it is already illegal to use corporal punishment in Massachusetts schools, and there are already laws prohibiting child abuse by any adult. But this group wants to step over the threshold of US tradition, as well as the thresholds of millions of private homes, to police parenting styles.

According to Boston’s WCVB, the proposed bill would outlaw whipping, spanking, pinching, administering electric shock, “hot saucing”, washing out a child’s mouth with soap, or any other manner of “the willful infliction of physical pain on children under 18.” Under the new law, children would be able to turn in their parents for any infractions.

• 2006-OCT-19: Greece: Parliament outlaws corporal punishment in the home: The Greek Parliament passed Law 3500/2006 "Combating of Intra-family Violence." Article 4 of the new law states:

"Physical violence against children as a disciplinary measure in the context of their upbringing brings the consequences of Article 1532 of the Civil Code."

hat article has various penalties for the abuse of parental authority. The most serious is the removal of parental authority by the courts. 11

• 2002-MAR-27: Scotland: Government to restrict spanking: The Government of Scotland announced plans to outlaw the spanking of children under the age of three. Their proposed legislation would also outlaw the use of an instrument, such as a shoe or belt, to hit a child of any age.

• 2003-FEB-13 (approx): WY: Wyoming Senate retains corporal punishment: House Bill 68 which would have ended corporal punishment in Wyoming public schools was narrowly defeated in the Senate. It had been approved by the House with a vote of 48 to 10, but was given a tie vote of 15 to 15 in the Senate.

Senator Larry Caller (D-Rock Springs) said there were eight cases of corporal punishment reported in Wyoming schools last year; he suspects that many more were not reported.

Senator Cale Case (R-Lander) said: ''I don't think there is ever a reason to inflict pain on another person, especially a child.''

• 2003-MAR: Iceland: Government bans all violence against children: The government updated its Children's Act. Article 28 states: "It is the parents obligation to protect their child against any physical or mental violence and other degrading or humiliating behaviour." This is interpreted by government and by the Ombudsman for Children as explicitly prohibiting corporal punishment by parents..

• 2005-NOV-18: PA: Corporal punishment in public schools: The Attorney General of Pennsylvania has approved the newly revised Chapter 12 of the Pennsylvania Consolidated Statutes. It includes a new section which prohibits corporal punishment in public schools. When the change is published in the Pennsylvania Register, this state will become the 29th state in the U.S. to ban corporal punishment in public schools. http://www.religioustolerance.org/spanknews02.htm

[daniel1212]

Beautiful!

[sickoflibs]

RE :”sickoflibs - you have the patience of Job.”

LOL, Thanks

On that other thread I get pinged a day or so after I thought the thread died with a comment claiming that ‘no one else but this preacher was convicted’ which was a outright lie as my comment link reference above shows. I let it go because they obviously had turned off their 'comprehend' mode.

When I want to get a principled point across I don't pick someone who makes a mockery of my case.

What if a Muslim cleric was counseling the stoning of female member relatives for premarital sex and a number of them were being killed by group stoning by those following his preaching? You think these same folks would be using him as a poster boy for the First Amendment? No, They would be using that as proof that Islam is evil.

[lurk]

I know Phil Caminiti.

There may be more to the story than is in the article. Phil has been exerting a scary amount of power over the people in his church. He wasn’t always this way.

[daniel1212]

See article and comments. The infant aspect is acknowledged to be valid of censure, but it extended to the use of a wooden spoon at old ages without distinction as being child abuse, and even against teaching it.

[daniel1212]

See above comments.

[Wings-n-Wind]

What is incredulous to me....

Is that the pastor's attorneys FAILED to file a series of immediate motions for new trial...
Concurrently with notice of appeal with emergency stays for the imposed sentence...

...Followed quickly by a very forceful b*tchslap-appeal /motions/suit in federal district court -- on 1st Amendment grounds...

Lacking other proven and adjudicated criminal charges....

This man should never see a day in jail for teaching Biblical truths-- regardless of the opinions of pop culture and psycho-babble academics.

Just my $.02

[daniel1212]

Pertinent:

When Is Spanking Child Abuse? By LISA BELKIN

A hearing is underway in a Wisconsin courtroom, for Barry Barnett, a 43-year-old pastor. He and the state department of social services both agree that the father of nine and minister at the Lighthouse Family Ministries in Poynette, Wisc., used a wooden paddle to punish his 12-year-old son for lying last spring. But they differ on whether that paddling, which left bruises on the boy, was child abuse.

The son has testified — that his father hit him twice; that they both cried during the paddling; that the two “swats” hurt “a little”; that he loves his father and feels safe at home; and that he understands why he was hit. “You should not lie to you parents,” he said.

The ER where the boy was treated submitted a report to the court — showing that the there were faint bruises on his buttocks but no swelling and that he was in no pain.

The district attorney argued that Mr. Barnett “went beyond reasonable discipline and it’s a pattern...”

...63 percent of parents physically discipline their 1-to 2-year-olds, and 85 percent of adolescents have been physically punished by their parents.

the United Nations has set a target date of 2009 to end corporal punishment by parents, and while 23 countries have already banned hitting kids, - http://parenting.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/21/when-is-spanking-child-abuse/

[sickoflibs]

RE :”Posting articles as this does foster discussion, and was not meant to sanction all that the pastor did. You are right about the danger due to the infant aspect, but as said, the ruling was broader than just that, and is not the first time charges have been brought, or laws sought* against principled child discipline of those old enough to know “to refuse the evil, and choose the good.”

I know real examples of false accusations of child abuse used to destroy a parent over spanking in custody battles, but that doesn't mean I want to make child abuse legal.

From what I can see this preacher was guilty, he even contradicted himself on the stand as to what he told them. Did you know he told his members to never do it (follow his advice) in public where witnesses would see it? He sure acted like he knew he was guilty.