Posted on 09/06/2004 8:16:38 AM PDT by SunkenCiv
You've misread what I said in an earlier post -- I made it quite clear God could have created all in a blink of His eye -- I refuse to limit God.
I see the bud of your problem is that you don't accept God's Word as Truth. You may say you do, but you don't. God inspired all of the Bible and preserved it for all generations. What is there is what He wanted to be there. So the literal 24 hour days in the Bible come FROM GOD through Moses. It's not Moses personal understanding of events that is recorded.
Again, six literal days fits all the evidence that we have. There is nothing to honest scientists that refutes Biblical Creation. Yet the evolutionary model has to keep changing to adapt to new evidence that flies in the face of what was taught before.
You said I am "simply assuming Man's logic is infallible" when in fact nothing is further from the truth of what I'm saying. Man IS fallible -- and when we take man's ideas (Evolution) and try to cut and paste God's Truth to fit the flawed ideas of man, then we have a problem.
If I bring up politics, it's for example -- and just as valid as using any other analogy.
"I refuse to limit God."
You misread my post, you limited God by saying He could not lie. You also will not accept that God, as well as creating things in the blink of an eye, can create things over long periods of time.
I do accept God's Word as Truth. What I don't blindly accept is the words of men held in Mesopotamia away from their own tribes for a couple generations.
Yes, God inspired the Bible, but don't you think it's possible for Man to screw it up somewhere along the line? Man wrote it down after all. Or did you forget the fact that there is more than one language the Bible is written in?
Moses didn't record the events, his followers did. The Hebrew tribes had an oral tradition until about 900 B.C., Moses was around in the 1,200's I believe, I'll have to check my notes.
And yes, Man's logic is fallible. BTW, you're of Man. So was the hand that put Genesis to paper. And the one after it and the one after it and so on. If you've ever played a game of telephone, you will know that it will change, even if the general message remains, something changes.
I accept the Word of God as Truth. I also accept the Word of God may have been simply put into Man's context for simpliciy's sake.
If you feel that putting politics in is for example, then I have this to say: The KKK and the Nazi Party use(d) literal quotes from the Bible to excuse their hatred. Slavery was backed by parables in the New Testament. The Church has a history of waging war to convert or kill those that would not believe.
Myself, I believe God and my relationship to Him is between myself and Him. And when I am married, He will be a part of that as well. However, organized religion is a human device, and should be recognized as such. I do not mean to discredit the MANY good and great things from the Church over history, but keep in mind, even the Pope is fallible.
"Again, six literal days fits all the evidence that we have."
How about the fact that physics is a property God gave existance? I feel God gave us that for a reason. How does your view that we've been around for only 5000 years fit into the idea of stars that have died 10,000 years ago? Why would God have things like that there?
I believe earth is between 6000 and 10000 years old.
However, the dating methods which label the dying stars from 10,000 years ago are based on flawed theories and assumptions. That year label is applied by man -- there are no birth and death records of stars.
You've twisted my words (again). I have never said God could NOT create things over a long period a time, only that He said He did not. He says six literal days and since there is no reason to doubt His word, I won't do it.
You seem to doubt the inerrancy of Scripture which is the root of your confusion.
As for the Klan and Nazi's, they took texts out of context -- something I am not doing here -- so you comparison is a mere insult and not relevant.
Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't avail us anything if you aren't interested in changing your views.
And the birth and death records are based on Mathematics, a human observation of God's principles.
Mathematics calculated using values for variables that are ASSUMED to have been constant for the entire period of time, which is not proveable or even truly assumable.
"Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't avail us anything if you aren't interested in changing your views."
what are you talking about? my views were once your veiws. i changed because of information; you stayed because of stubborness (or lack of information)
I am interested in changing my views, why do you think I changed them in the first place? I used to feel as you do, but I didn't like the whole idea of being out of sync with information.
"As for the Klan and Nazi's, they took texts out of context -- something I am not doing here -- so you comparison is a mere insult and not relevant. "
same can be said for your political ribs, where were you going with this?
"Regardless -- it seems we're on uneven footing here and further discourse won't"
yeah, you're right, i shouldn't be discussing this with you while you are so uninformed of world history.
seeing as they apply now, why would God have them work NOW but not then?
More insults and disingenuous comments. Or have you just not read anything?
I stated very clearly that I USED to hold the evolutionary position and upgraded to the Creationist position because the evidence is overwhelmingly in support of it. You seem to have taken my seat on the short yellow bus.
What are you talking about???
The math is not the error -- it's the values poured into the math by "scientists" who make rash assumptions based solely on their imagination.
Such as the speed of light being a constant, etc.
and that would be an assumption. please, make a vaild point.
values over math itself? so you are saying "it isn't in 1+1=2," but in "truth+assumptions=further assumptions" that truth exists. and yet, any scientist can tell you stars exist with a standard decay. they all act similar, as they are not living, but simple functions. again, i ask you, why would the evidence be there if the truth wasn;t there?
You must have been tired because that post made no sense.
The evidence is the REAL tangible stuff we have. All of that supports Creation. Evolution keeps getting adjusted to fit the evidence.
There is no evidence that gives a hard "age" of unobserved things. Only guesses based on theories and suppositions. Such as the belief that the speed of light is constant -- which more and more are doubting.
To use a better analogy, it's like 1+x=y.
We don't KNOW x, but scientists throw in a value to X based on assumptions, so in this case '1' and derive '2' for the value of y.
But x could have been .5 in the past, 1.5 in the past or whatever.
You must have been tired because that post made no sense.
The evidence is the REAL tangible stuff we have. All of that supports Creation. Evolution keeps getting adjusted to fit the evidence.
There is no evidence that gives a hard "age" of unobserved things. Only guesses based on theories and suppositions. Such as the belief that the speed of light is constant -- which more and more are doubting.
To use a better analogy, it's like 1+x=y.
We don't KNOW x, but scientists throw in a value to X based on assumptions, so in this case '1' and derive '2' for the value of y.
But x could have been .5 in the past, 1.5 in the past or whatever.
Yeah, in retrospect, I shouldn't have posted that.
Now, though, as for math. We observe nuclear decay NOW, we know the equation for it's decay. Thats how we bombed Hiroshima and Nagisaki, from facts. Or are A-bombs a simple matter of mind over matter?
From what we know of decay, we use to age stars, we base it on size, colour, and other variables. We then observe stars fitting into the catagory we deemed "about to die" as they collapse, and it fits into our equations and our math. Thus by the brains God gave us, we have the ability to learn about our surroundings. Again, I ask you, why would God put evidence in the same context as we exist now of a non-existant past? To throw us off track? Or to put us on the right one?
As for the "Creation never changes it's story, so it must be true, because Evolution keeps changing it's story" bit...
I am not saying so, but keep this in mind when using that logic: A stopped clock is even right twice a day. Just because you stick to your story, it doesn't make your story any more or less valid than another.
You want real tangible evidence for evolution from Divine intervention, but do not offer anything more than the Word written down by Man after several generations of oral traditions? You gotta admit, that's asking a bit much of a community.
You're telling them they aren't valid simply because it doesn't fit with your understanding, and then your only support is the Book. You and I hold it with utmost importance, but you just asked them to provide more than someone's word in support of their evidence, but your only evidence to them IS someone's word. Hardly seems like an acceptable offering to me and to them.
BTW, evolutionary theory propses we all came from the same original humans, in a small tribe in asia. The Bible proposes we all came from the same original humans, in a small tribe, in an unknown place, without an explanation of where the other women came from.
The only real problem with evoluionary theory is the idea of abiogenisis, but that was derived from some scientists who simlpy wanted God out of the equation. That is unsupported, and that is where I stand my ground.
If you feel the idea that "life changes" is so unsupported, then please, never listen to a doctor if they tell you to use stronger medications for a bacterial infection. It is life's very nature to adapt and to change, this is a form and function God gave it, as it is precious and God wanted His Creation to survive.
Ah, you keep missing the point. We know the rate of nuclear decay NOW. We do not know the rate of nuclear decay 200 years ago, 1000 years ago, 5000 years ago.
As for the stopped clock nonsense, it doesn't apply. The Creation model is right 24 hours per day, so the analogy doesn't work.
And we should stop this dicussion, because as I said we're not on the same ground. You do not see the Bible as 100% Divinely inspired. You keep saying it is the words of men, which it is not. While you dismiss the truth of God's Word and what HE SAYS ON THE MATTER, you are no different than those who dismiss the Bible altogether. You're almost worse, as you pick and choose which parts are true.
Finally, since you haven't been paying attention, I do not base my understanding of Creation only on the Bible -- but on the science which supports it. All the evidence we have fits the Biblical account. Every last piece. Belief in Creation is NOT, as you seem to think, disbelief in Science itself. On the contrary.
"So you're saying physics and math did NOT apply before we discovered them. That before Newton had that moment of realization, that gravity was simply a matter of the mind? It's a Logarithm"
You don't read well do you? I've never said anything approaching what you just said. I simply pointed out the fact that we do not know what the RATE OF NUCLEAR DECAY WAS at any point before it was observed. If I drive from home to work at 70 MPH and then you observe me in the parking lot going 15 MPH, you cannot say what my speed was prior to observation.
Physics and math have not been dimissed at all -- only the values so-called scientists uses for their calculations -- not the calculations themselves. Please pay attention.
"You feel that "inspired" is as good as "infallible.""
The Bible *IS* infallible in the original texts, yes. Moses or Paul or any of the other authors did not write a word that God did not want included. God is the ultimate Author of Scripture.
"Tell that to the people who put together the Canon Bible. They selected from hundreds of different texts to put it together, that's what the Dead Sea Scrolls are!"
What???? The Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of texts that validated the Bible. There were other books and works in there, but those were rejected due to the strict tests placed upon each work. The 66 books we have are God's Holy Word.
"I simply happen to feel God may have dumbed it down (or someone did) for us mortals."
Then you are at odds with God's Word.
I failed to correct you on this point before, but God CANNOT lie. Lying is sin and God cannot sin.
Psalm 119:60 "The entirety of Your word is truth" ENTIRETY. ALL OF IT. If God "dumbed down" His creation as you say, then He is lying and His word is not truth. Sorry, but the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is not that weak. You're imposing human characteristics and flaws onto God.
"However, Humanity CANNOT reproduce without both men and women. "
Finally, you get something right.
"Where is Cain's sister(s)?"
The children of Adam and Eve intermarried -- brothers and sisters. Cain took his wife and family with him into the wilderness (pretty obvious). The story of Cain and Abel is inserted before the genealogies are explained. This does not in anyway mean it happened before the rest of the family was born.
There was no prohibition against incest for many generations.
"Why are we finding so many people (corpses) from this time, if only a few near perfect humans walked the Earth then?"
They all descended from Adam and Eve. Who said it was a few anyway? They were fruitful and multiplied.
"Why did a new species of grass come into existance from an unknown source around the same time the agricultural revolution began? It testafies grain was BEFORE 8000 B.C."
#1, I'd have to see your source, but #2, dating methods have been proven flawed.
"According to it, we are 5764 years into existance. You can be quoted as saying "between 5 and 10 thousand" Which is it?"
In case you didn't notice, 5764 *IS* between 5 and 10 thousand.
"The Bible *IS* infallible in the original texts, yes."
By all means, read ancient greek to me. Im axious to hear it.
"What???? The Dead Sea Scrolls are copies of texts that validated the Bible. There were other books and works in there, but those were rejected due to the strict tests placed upon each work. The 66 books we have are God's Holy Word."
Someone hasn't read the Book of Thomas. (or any of the other finds for that matter)
In one of the Scrolls, it is said Jesus told Matthew that we only go to Hell for a short period of time, and that it is not a permamnet place for sinners. That sound like the Jesus you know?
"Then you are at odds with God's Word. "
No, I am at odds with Man's Word on God's Word.
"I failed to correct you on this point before, but God CANNOT lie. Lying is sin and God cannot sin. "
Seeing as "sin" means "to take from the Lord" I must assume you understand that no matter what God does, He is not "sinning" as He would then be leaving Himself. Even then though, the Ten Commandments do not say "thou shall not lie," they simply state that one should not bear false testamony against your neighbor. In other words, play fair.
As for the idea of a variable rate of decay... what are you smoking and why aren't you sharing? Matter breaks down in a logical pattern (earmark of Intellegent Design). If it didn't, it would all be arbitrary.
"Psalm 119:60 "The entirety of Your word is truth" ENTIRETY. ALL OF IT. If God "dumbed down" His creation as you say, then He is lying and His word is not truth. Sorry, but the God of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob is not that weak. You're imposing human characteristics and flaws onto God."
Since when did i assert it was a flaw to explain to people (who are stupid) how things exist in a way they could come to terms with? Since when is an abridged version of a story a lie? You assert "ALL OF IT" yet you neglect that again, it was Man who wrote it down. Men who were in power.
Learn to love God on a one-on-one basis. Not in the shadow of some 1700 year old corporation.
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