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Vast and Deadly Fleets May Yield Secrets at Last
New York Times ^ | April 20, 2004 | William J. Broad

Posted on 07/25/2004 6:26:36 PM PDT by SunkenCiv

The Persian Wars may be famed in history, but few artifacts and material remains have emerged to shed light on how the ancient Greeks defeated the Asian invaders and saved Europe in what scholars call one of the first great victories of freedom over tyranny. It is well known that a deadly warship of antiquity, the trireme, a fast galley powered by three banks of rowers pulling up to 200 oars, played a crucial role in the fierce battles. Its bronze ram could smash enemy ships, and armed soldiers could leap aboard a foe's vessel in hand-to-hand combat with swords and spears, an innovation that merged land and sea tactics in a bloody new form of combat. (New York Times requires free registration to read its articles)


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1 posted on 07/25/2004 6:26:44 PM PDT by SunkenCiv
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To: blam; FairOpinion; farmfriend; StayAt HomeMother; SunkenCiv; 24Karet; 7.62 x 51mm; 75thOVI; ...
A blast from the (recent) past.
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2 posted on 07/25/2004 6:27:54 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv
Thanks go to my Delphi pal TexasRed for pointing out that NYT article. Robert Ballard's old professor, Willard Bascom, suggested looking for ancient wrecks in the areas of known sea battles, like Actium (Octavian / Antony). I'd also add that the giant grain haulers Rome used probably went down (full or empty) and should be fairly easy to find, as their usual routes are pretty well known (such as the straits of Messina).
The Ancient Mariners
by Lionel Casson
Antigonus [the One-Eyed] wanted a fleet, not of triremes like the Athenian, but of the newer quadriremes and quinqeremes which, having proved their worth in the navy of Dionysius of Syracuse at the beginning of the century, were gradually making their way into eastern navies. Demetrius' ideas were even more grandiose: if quadriremes and quinqueremes, that is, "fours" and "fives," could be built, why not larger still? Under his watchful eye, in 315 BC, the Phoenician shipyards turned out some "sixes" and "sevens' for him. By 301 he had "eights," "nines," "tens," an "eleven," and even one great "thirteen". A dozen years later he added a "fifteen" and a "sixteen." ...when the Romans conquered Macedon in 168 they found the old ship there; it was no longer of any use in battle but they sailed it home, rowed it up the Tiber, and moored it at one of the city docks as a trophy. [pp 129-130]
Casson writes that this arms race continued, eventually resulting in a "forty" -- 400 feet long, 50 wide, 70 high, manned by 4000 rowers, 400 deckhands, and 2850 marines. It never saw action.

3 posted on 07/25/2004 6:31:18 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: SunkenCiv

Can you just imagine what it smelled like?


4 posted on 07/25/2004 8:24:08 PM PDT by U S Army EOD (John Kerry, the mother of all flip floppers.)
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To: SunkenCiv
That "forty" sounds like a worse problem than the centipede's.

Unless the "forty" refers to some other designation that doesn't require rowers' benches in the rigging!

4,000 rowers sounds more like banks of forty oars, rather than forty banks.

2,000 per side, divide by 40 = 50, to be divided by the number of banks, minus X reserve rowers.

Maybe 2 sets of oarsmen, giving 5 banks of forty 5-man oars? That still sounds unwieldy,and makes for a loooong sweep for the inside-end oarsman. Could he even run back & forth fast enough to keep the stroke???

Any other thoughts on what exactly the "forty" be be designating?
5 posted on 07/25/2004 8:25:47 PM PDT by ApplegateRanch (The world needs more horses, and fewer Jackasses!)
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To: U S Army EOD
No doubt. Luckily everything else smelled the same, or worse. ;')
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6 posted on 07/25/2004 9:12:04 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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To: ApplegateRanch
It must have been a complex design. :') Alas, it hasn't survived (that we know of -- perhaps time will tell otherwise?) and it was unique. And there probably never were any drawn plans. (': A "forty" would be 100 rowers per level... yeah, complicated.
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7 posted on 07/25/2004 9:14:34 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Unlike some people, I have a profile. Okay, maybe it's a little large...)
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older posting of the same thing, and BTTT.

Vast and Deadly Fleets May Yield Secrets at Last (Freedom Over Tyranny Alert)
New York Times ^ | April 20, 2004 | WILLIAM J. BROAD
Posted on 04/20/2004 8:06:37 AM PDT by presidio9
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1121072/posts


8 posted on 10/10/2004 9:58:28 PM PDT by SunkenCiv ("All I have seen teaches me trust the Creator for all I have not seen." -- Emerson)
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9 posted on 08/15/2005 8:32:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Down with Dhimmicrats! I last updated by FR profile on Sunday, August 14, 2005.)
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Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list. Thanks.
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10 posted on 09/22/2006 11:04:03 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (updated my FR profile on Saturday, September 16, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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from April.

Shadows in the Desert: Ancient Persia at War Shadows in the Desert:
Ancient Persia at War

by Kaveh Farrokh


11 posted on 12/27/2006 6:17:52 PM PST by SunkenCiv (I updated my profile Saturday, December 23, 2006. https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/)
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· join list or digest · view topics · view or post blog · bookmark · post a topic · subscribe ·

 
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Just updating the GGG info, not sending a general distribution.

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GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother, and Ernest_at_the_Beach
 

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12 posted on 11/28/2009 9:10:32 AM PST by SunkenCiv (https://secure.freerepublic.com/donate/__Since Jan 3, 2004__Profile updated Monday, January 12, 2009)
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 GGG managers are SunkenCiv, StayAt HomeMother & Ernest_at_the_Beach
Just updating the GGG information, not sending a general distribution.

To all -- please ping me to other topics which are appropriate for the GGG list.


13 posted on 03/15/2013 7:36:28 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Romney would have been worse, if you're a dumb ass.)
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Note: this topic is from 7/25/2004. Another update.

14 posted on 10/16/2019 2:33:20 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1121072/posts


15 posted on 10/16/2019 2:34:46 PM PDT by SunkenCiv (Imagine an imaginary menagerie manager imagining managing an imaginary menagerie.)
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This topic was posted 7/25/2004, just updating, no ping.

16 posted on 10/23/2023 9:05:27 AM PDT by SunkenCiv (Putin should skip ahead to where he kills himself in the bunker.)
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