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Waco Bikers And The Blackstone Ratio
Motorcycle Profiling Project ^ | June 12, 2015 | David Devereaux

Posted on 06/29/2015 8:23:31 AM PDT by don-o

All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.”

Why Do The Due Process Concerns Of Innocents Outweigh The State Interest Of Convicting Those That Are Responsible For The Shooting In Waco?

The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860’s named Sir William Blackstone, is commonly accepted as a cornerstone of civil liberties and a free society. Closely related to the idea that an individual is innocent until proven guilty, the Blackstone Ratio means that democratic societies do not sacrifice the liberties of the innocent in order to punish the guilty. Democratic societies accept that prioritizing civil liberties of individuals means some guilty people will escape justice in order to preserve a free society.

In a totalitarian society the opposite is true. Totalitarian governments consider the state’s interest in punishing criminals more important than the collateral damage created by innocents suffering in the process. Totalitarian governments believe that casting dragnets to capture the guilty is justified because it is motivated by the goal of reducing crime and insuring the safety of its citizens.

Certainly it is true that all governments have a compelling state interest to reduce crime and punish the guilty. This is even true in democratic societies. It is even reasonable to say that this interest is based on the belief that people in society have the right to be safe from criminal activity. But the state, in an attempt to accomplish its interests, will eventually come in conflict with personal liberties. So how does the American democratic system determine which interests are more important?

Oftentimes rights come in conflict and compete for priority. When they do, the American criminal justice system says we must balance these rights based on the intent and purpose of the Constitution and the impact on civil liberties generally. The Bill of Rights irrefutably places critical priority on the sanctity of individual rights over draconian police arrests and incarcerations justified by state interests like reducing crime or general public safety.

There is no better example than Waco to demonstrate how the state’s interest in punishing the guilty has come in conflict with the civil liberties of innocents and potential eyewitnesses. Regardless of what the currently unreleased facts ultimately reveal about what happened in Waco, it defies reason to assert that more than 170 individuals could possibly have committed a crime or be deserving of $1 million dollar bonds.

As has been widely reported, the Waco PD made it very clear that many of the more than 170 individuals arrested were arrested because of their associations with motorcycle clubs allegedly involved in the Waco shooting. There was absolutely no evidence specified, other than mere organizational association, establishing particularized or specific probable cause for any of the individuals arrested. This is evidenced by the fact that every single arrest was based on an identical and generic fill-in the name affidavit.

It has also been made clear, in complete violation of an individual’s 5th Amendment right to remain silent, that prosecutors and judges imposed $1 million dollar bonds on every individual arrested based on the gravity of the crime scene and the non-cooperation of those arrested. Bail is intended to insure that an individual does not flee. It is not intended to be a punitive measure. And the right not to be forced into statements of self-incrimination is elementary, understood by almost everyone, particularly those that work in the judiciary system like prosecutors and judges.

Mere membership in a group, even a group that contains convicted felons, does not establish probable cause. As articulated by a recent ACLU press release related to Waco, “While all the facts of this tragic incident are still unclear, we do know that if any of the more than 170 arrests were based solely on membership in a group, the Constitution demands more, including probable cause. Mere membership in a group should never be the basis of an arrest. And dragnet arrests raise the specter of overzealous police work, just like we’ve seen at our border and in cities around the country.”

It cannot credibly be argued that the Waco arrest and punitive bond tactics employed by law enforcement and government authorities is not resulting in the suffering of innocents. While incarcerated, innocent people are separated from their families, loved ones, employers, and the enjoyment of every civil liberty enjoyed by free citizens. Many of the accused are still incarcerated. And even those that have been released had to pay a bond and agree to further restrictions on behavior and associations.

So how should this have been handled? It’s not my job to decide how law enforcement does its job beyond demanding, and hoping that others demand, that whatever tactics employed respect baseline constitutional principles and individual liberties in order to protect the innocent and the foundations of a free society.

There is a reason the Blackstone Ratio is a critical component of a democratic criminal justice system. Everyone, not just bikers, should be deeply concerned about tactics that cause innocents to suffer. And this is true even if it means the guilty escape prosecution. Sure, rounding up and arresting every biker, or catholic, or Muslim, or teenager with a trench coat, or eyewitness to a crime will most likely include those responsible for the crime being investigated. But these draconian dragnets also ensnare innocent people that suffer from damage to their families, employment, reputations, finances, and the enjoyment of the basic freedoms intended to be guaranteed to every American.


TOPICS: Miscellaneous
KEYWORDS: texas; texasgatortroll; waco; wacobikers; wildhogs
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To: Boogieman

oh yea -

Your momma!

:-)


41 posted on 06/29/2015 11:26:46 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: Boogieman

oh yea -

Your momma!

:-)


42 posted on 06/29/2015 11:26:46 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: Boogieman

oh yea -

Your momma!

:-)


43 posted on 06/29/2015 11:26:46 AM PDT by Triple (Socialism denies people the right to the fruits of their labor, and is as abhorrent as slavery)
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To: don-o

“Arguing on the merits is not in their skill set”

Mirror, mirror on the wall........ who shirks the merits?

It is don0 I tell you true.


44 posted on 06/29/2015 12:27:44 PM PDT by X-spurt (CRUZ missile - armed and ready.)
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To: don-o
The Blackstone Ratio, a concept attributed to a famous jurist of the 1860’s named Sir William Blackstone,

Sir William Blackstone was one of the sources for the Founders and died in 1780

Does anyone in the commentariat know anything about history anymore?

45 posted on 06/29/2015 12:39:20 PM PDT by Timocrat (Ingnorantia non excusat)
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To: Timocrat

Can we maybe ascribe that as a typo - 1760’s?


46 posted on 06/29/2015 12:54:29 PM PDT by don-o (I am Kenneth Carlisle - Waco 5/17/15)
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To: X-spurt

AJNTSA


47 posted on 06/29/2015 1:09:24 PM PDT by don-o (I am Kenneth Carlisle - Waco 5/17/15)
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To: Pelham

Boogieman has made it clear that motorcycles are the tool of the devil in his mind, and that riding one is proof that an individual is both a drug dealer and a Pimp.

He is like the people who bought into Nifong’s bullsh!t early in the Duke LaCrosse hoax and who insist to this day that “whatever they did was bad enough.”


48 posted on 06/29/2015 1:34:34 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: Parley Baer

Who may have been legal concealed carriers, legally welding a weapon in self-defense. Eighteen more were also wounded.

As time goes by it looks more and more like the cops simply decided to shoot everyone with a weapon, disregarding the principle that self-defense is a right of the citizenry.

The people still defending the initial one million dollar bonds have - to a man - pretty much insisted that self defense is not a right of the citizenry.


49 posted on 06/29/2015 1:41:11 PM PDT by MrEdd (Heck? Geewhiz Cripes, thats the place where people who don't believe in Gosh think they aint going.)
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To: don-o

Update #2 is missing now too.


50 posted on 06/29/2015 2:08:55 PM PDT by Prolixus (Why does Waco make me think of Benghazi?)
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To: Prolixus

Why would they even bother? Unless there is bad info in the scrubbed updates?


51 posted on 06/29/2015 2:25:24 PM PDT by don-o (I am Kenneth Carlisle - Waco 5/17/15)
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To: Boogieman
Now, what rights do you think these criminals had that were violated, exactly?

Were they criminals? I mean you can keep saying it over and over, but that doesn't make it a fact. Are you aware that it's been reported by new organizations in Texas (who did actual research) that 2/3 of those arrested had no previous arrest records.

Is the CoC a "criminal front group" as you keep insisting, or is it a loose grouping of clubs that span a wide range from criminal to non-criminal, as many have claimed in news reports? Your (and your doppleganger TexasGator) insist that merely attending an event sponsored by a large umbrella organization makes those attending the equivalent of soldiers in the mob. But, again, the news reports down seem to align with that. THere was at least one Christian biking brotherhood, a ex-military club, and a club dedicated to restoring antique bikes at the event.

The article does a good job of explaining which of their rights have been violated.


52 posted on 06/29/2015 2:51:46 PM PDT by Jack Black ( Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocide.)
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To: Boogieman
Here is the list of clubs that belong to the Washington CoC:

Now the Bandidos and the Gypsy Jokers are typical 1% clubs that have a lot of history of organized crime and no doubt more than a few criminal members.

One assumes the "Christ's Disciples" and "Christ's Crusaders" Christian clubs, possibly as are Resurrection. The VietNam Vets and Marines appear to be made up of veterans.

53 posted on 06/29/2015 3:07:25 PM PDT by Jack Black ( Disarmament of a targeted group is one of the surest early warning signs of future genocide.)
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To: Jack Black

“Were they criminals?”

I was responding to a poster who used that language, so I used it too. He later objected to it (though he used it himself), so I agreed to call them “alleged criminals”. Does that make you feel better?

“Is the CoC a “criminal front group” as you keep insisting, or is it a loose grouping of clubs that span a wide range from criminal to non-criminal, as many have claimed in news reports?”

It’s a criminal front group. Yes, there are “non-outlaw” clubs that may be members, but the COCs are all, without exception, run by the largest outlaw gang in the state, and they extort money from the “non-outlaw” clubs to fund their operations.

“Your (and your doppleganger TexasGator) insist that merely attending an event sponsored by a large umbrella organization makes those attending the equivalent of soldiers in the mob.”

I’ve never insisted any such thing.

The article does a good job of explaining which of their rights have been violated.

“[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures”


Not sure how this right was supposedly violated, as they were all arrested after officers witnessed crimes being committed, so there was no need for a search warrant.

“The right to reasonable bail and speedy trial”

Those rights haven’t been violated. They were assigned bail similar to other people accused of similar crimes, and their trials are progressing at the same pace as people accused of similar crimes.

“And of course, the right to life, if it turns out the LEOs killed some of the victims without it being legitimate self=defense. “

There is also a right to kill in order to protect the lives of others, and this right especially applies to police officers. Besides, we don’t even know yet who the police killed, and for what reason, so it’s too premature to try to claim any violation here.


54 posted on 06/29/2015 3:10:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Jack Black

And who is running the Washington COC, pray tell?

Is it one of those Christian or Vet MCs? Or does it happen to be, by some strange coincidence, the largest outlaw gang in the state?

The fact that some non-criminals might be members doesn’t disprove that it is a criminal front group. In fact, it is highly desirable to have non-criminals in your front group. That’s kind of the whole point of having a front group, to make it look like a legitimate organization while still furthering your criminal operations.


55 posted on 06/29/2015 3:16:10 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Parley Baer

“By killing 8 or 9 people.”

Most were killed by the bikers.


56 posted on 06/29/2015 4:08:04 PM PDT by TexasGator
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To: Boogieman

“There is no point debating idiots pushing these conspiracies. They do not respond to logic or facts.”

Even though every biker that was there and has gone public has stated that the gunfight started among the bikers we still have people pushing that the cops ambushed the bikers.

Bikers on the scene commend the police for their actions.

Peter Graves, Bandidos officer and TCOC president at the Waco shooting, says they respect the police for doing their job.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q_sCRg69TQE

(Big John Snyder, Vice president of the Boozefighters at the Waco shooting) “The police were professional, considering the situation they were in. They were professional and doing their job,” he said.
http://www.latimes.com/nation/nationnow/la-na-nn-waco-biker-20150519-story.html

We have also heard from a biker family member that the police probably saved lives at Waco.


57 posted on 06/29/2015 4:10:28 PM PDT by TexasGator
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To: Boogieman

” Yes, there are “non-outlaw” clubs that may be members,”

Without joining and paying the extortion fees, they are ‘informed’ that they are not ‘welcome’ on the open road.


58 posted on 06/29/2015 4:12:17 PM PDT by TexasGator
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To: TexasGator

Yup, unless they are lucky enough to get an “exemption”, they have to pay the protection money to the COC. It’s a racket.


59 posted on 06/29/2015 4:19:58 PM PDT by Boogieman
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To: Jack Black
"[t]he right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures

And the rest of the 4th related to probable cause. That one was shredded.

60 posted on 06/29/2015 5:04:08 PM PDT by don-o (I am Kenneth Carlisle - Waco 5/17/15)
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