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Five Rounds Standard issue for a U.S. Army Guard?
Gun Watch ^ | 25 February, 2015 | Dean Weingarten

Posted on 02/26/2015 7:28:34 PM PST by marktwain


I was either in, or worked for, the U.S. Army for over 30 years.  During that time I had some experience with what guards were issued for ammunition.   My brother brought my attention to a video done about F-15s in Bitburg, Germany, in 1981, at the height of the cold war, only a few year before NATO won.  It is titled "The Wing".  In the video you can see the Tech Sergeant being issued magazines.  He is issued four magazines, all have rounds in them.  He makes sure his chamber is clear, and inserts one magazine.  In the screen-shot (about 7:26 on the video) you can see the other three magazines in his left hand.  They are clearly 30 round magazines for the M16 or variants.

If they were loaded with 28-29 rounds each, I would be pleasantly surprised.  I was surprised to see that he received four magazines with rounds in them.  It would not make sense to issue him four magazines with five rounds each, when he could be issued one magazine with 20 rounds.

The reason that my curiosity is aroused is that my experience has been far different.  As this was a commercially produced video made in cooperation with the military, the number of magazines may have been exaggerated for dramatic effect, disinformation purposes, or operational security.

My first experience with ammunition issued to guards was in California, six years earlier than the video.  I had been assigned extra duty as a military game warden on the Hunter Liggett Military Reservation.   I was not issued a weapon, but carried my own, an Argentine Ballister Molina .45 that accepted Colt magazines.   It was a decent pistol, and did not have the grip safety of the Colt 1911.  My partner carried a model 19 Smith & Wesson .357.  We both carried them fully loaded with extra ammunition.

We had been briefed about a potential threat.  A tip had been received that elements of the Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA) were considering a raid on an Ammunition Supply Point (ASP) somewhere in California.  We received a report of shots being fired behind the ASP, and took our Jeep to investigate.

We did not find anything.  The way back around the ASP was mountainous and long, so we decided to short cut back toward the headquarters area through the ASP.   The guard stopped us with a hand signal.   We stopped.  He pawed at his shirt pocket.  We moved forward.  He stopped us, and moved back the distance that we had moved forward.  He pawed at his pocket; we moved forward.  Everything was repeated.  Finally, we got out of the Jeep, he made it be known that he needed to see ID.  We tossed it to him.  He wanted to maintain distance.  After verification, he let us pass through the ASP.

I was curious about the pocket pawing, and asked about it.  It turned out that the guards were issued one .45 magazine with five rounds in it, and it was to be kept buttoned in the shirt pocket.  Very Barney Fife.  Everyone that I talked to thought it was a stupid policy.

The next experience was in Panama, at the Rodman ASP, 1985-89.  I do not think the guards there were Marines; they might have been Army, Air Force, or Navy.  For some reason, Air Force comes to mind.  They were allowed one magazine for their M16s.   Trouble with Noriega was heating up prior to the U.S. Invasion (Operation Just Cause), after a drunken Noriega had declared war in a Panamanian Television program.  It was not clear that he intended to declare war; but he clearly said that Panama was in a state of war with the United States.

At Rodman, the guard's issued magazine and five rounds were to be kept in a magazine pouch.  If a guard did not have all five rounds at the end of his shift, the entire company was turned out to hunt for the missing round.   Guards were confronted by armed poachers several times.   One SOF member (almost certainly a SEAL) was killed by a poacher while training on a night patrol at Ft. Sherman, while I was there, but the policy did not change until the Marines took over security in the face of growing Noriega regime hostility.

There have been other instances in which U.S. military security personnel were not allowed to have loaded weapons, or allowed only limited ammunition in the face of a deadly threat.   The bombing of the Marine Barracks in Lebanon in 1983 was one, others have been mentioned in the news.

I would like to know this: What experience did you have with ammunition issued to U.S. military forces on guard duty; and were you issued more than five rounds of ammunition?

©2015 by Dean Weingarten: Permission to share is granted when this notice is included.
Link to Gun Watch


TOPICS: Government; History; Military/Veterans; Politics
KEYWORDS: ammunition; banglist; guard; military
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1 posted on 02/26/2015 7:28:34 PM PST by marktwain
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To: marktwain

I remember the bombing of the Marine barracks in Lebanon. The guards had fifty caliber machine guns but no ammo.

I actually blamed Regan because he was head of the military and should have made sure there was no such nonsense going on. I know if I was president, that would be a priority order to all military and civilian guards.

The 50 cal. could have stopped that truck load of explosives too. Also he would have had to have permission to shoot. That would have been another one of president yard-dog’s orders.


2 posted on 02/26/2015 7:37:08 PM PST by yarddog (Romans 8:38-39, For I am persuaded.)
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To: marktwain

Someone might shoot their eye out!


3 posted on 02/26/2015 7:39:38 PM PST by SWAMPSNIPER (The Second Amendment, a Matter of Fact, Not A Matter of Opinion)
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To: marktwain

As an Army MP back in ‘89-’91, I was issued all of 10 rounds of 9mm ball for my M9 pistol. Against regs, I kept a personal magazine of 13 more rounds close by. The location of my posting will stay undisclosed.


4 posted on 02/26/2015 7:41:29 PM PST by thescourged1
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To: yarddog

And no cutting and running from Lebanon either. Today it’s Hezbollah Central.


5 posted on 02/26/2015 7:41:52 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: marktwain

This is an upgrade from Barney Fife who only got one.


6 posted on 02/26/2015 7:42:11 PM PST by Veggie Todd (The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. TJ)
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To: marktwain

Same here, 5 rounds in my 45


7 posted on 02/26/2015 7:42:24 PM PST by dila813
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To: marktwain
I commanded a military police company in Korea in the 90s and then stayed on for another year as provost marshal ops officer. Our on duty MPs were issued one five round mag which was carried in the weapon with nothing in the chamber.

This had as much to do with ammo accountability as anything else. A lost round or AD resulted in reams of paperwork nobody wanted to do, possible adverse career-impacting actions for the NCOs and junior officers in the chain of the soldier who lost the round, and a report of survey, at the end of which the soldier losing the round would see a $0.18 deduction from his next paycheck to adjust the property books.

8 posted on 02/26/2015 7:46:07 PM PST by Joe 6-pack (Qui me amat, amat et canem meum.)
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To: Olog-hai

When that bomb went off, the Grenada invasion had already started, and the Army was physically on the ground and engaged in combat 47 hours later.

I think that Reagan made the right decision to not allow his presidency and his greater global strategy against the Russian empire, to be bogged down in the Middle East.


9 posted on 02/26/2015 7:46:30 PM PST by ansel12 (Palin--Mr President, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke.)
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To: marktwain

In the future they’ll get a billy club and a whistle.


10 posted on 02/26/2015 7:48:11 PM PST by beethovenfan (If Islam is the solution, the "problem" must be freedom.)
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To: dila813

An ex-Army co-worker related that guards in Korea had no ammo in their rifles but the sergeant had 3 rounds in his pistol!

Another,an ex-Marine ,in reference to my outrage at effectively unarmed guards in Lebanon ,said”you can’t trust those young guys with loaded guns”.

WTF!!!!


11 posted on 02/26/2015 7:50:19 PM PST by hoosierham (Freedom isn't free)
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To: marktwain

LA Riots in 1992, I was issued 15 Rounds .45. Than they gave me a medic who was issued a .45 also. He got 7, I took 8. An LA Sheriff Deputy gave me about 20 hollow point .45’s, which I still have.

My troops had anywhere between 20 - 30, most brought their own as we turned in 200 more rounds than we drew. NCO’s had more than the troops, because I said so.


12 posted on 02/26/2015 7:50:24 PM PST by occamrzr06 (A great life is but a series of dogs!)
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To: occamrzr06

Than=Then


13 posted on 02/26/2015 7:51:06 PM PST by occamrzr06 (A great life is but a series of dogs!)
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To: ansel12

Meanwhile, the long-running Islamic threat metastasized.

As far as I can see, the two threats were really one. Look at Iran after all.


14 posted on 02/26/2015 7:52:15 PM PST by Olog-hai
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To: Olog-hai

Nothing was like the threat of the Soviet Union, we literally went through decades knowing that each day could be our last, for modern man.


15 posted on 02/26/2015 8:00:06 PM PST by ansel12 (Palin--Mr President, the only thing that stops a bad guy with a nuke is a good guy with a nuke.)
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To: marktwain

Petty Officer of the watch on a warship while in port was issued a .45 and a magazine with one round.


16 posted on 02/26/2015 8:01:43 PM PST by meatloaf
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To: marktwain

Easy enough answer: five rounds are easy to load and unload at the beginning and end of each watch. Five rounds are sufficient to stop an intruder or at least prevent anyone from taking your weapon from you. Guards aren’t supposed to engage in extended firefights, particularly since most of them are brand- new PFCs straight out of basic training.

Guards are supposed to be the tripwire who notifies the Corporal of the Guard that he has a problem and then the guard force turns out like gangbusters.

Back in the early days of my Marine Corps career, I was a guard for an ammunition depot in the hills of Camp Pendleton. At another post further in the ammo dump, a new lieutenant is the Officer of the Day and he decides that he’s going to sneak up on the guard at that post. The guard is surprised and opens fire on the lieutenant with his M-14. The lieutenant pulls his .45 and the fight is on. Luckily for all concerned, nobody was hit and they only had five rounds each, so the damage was limited.

Five rounds is just right, it turns out.


17 posted on 02/26/2015 8:05:00 PM PST by Chainmail (A simple rule of life: if you can be blamed, you're responsible.)
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To: Chainmail

I was the company armorer for a Finance Company in Germany. Army regulations required that any remote pay activities have armed guards. However, USAEUR (IIRC) regs required that no loose rounds were allowed in arms rooms.

If it made sense, it wouldn’t be the Army.


18 posted on 02/26/2015 8:13:06 PM PST by Tailback
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To: Chainmail
At another post further in the ammo dump, a new lieutenant is the Officer of the Day and he decides that he’s going to sneak up on the guard at that post.

Hm, I seem to remember something from the Army:

General Order #1
I will guard everything within the limits of my post and quit my post only when properly relieved.
Yeah, I know the Marines have different general orders — but I'd bet that [or functionally similar] is in them.
Point is, the guard was 100% in the right to guard his post.
19 posted on 02/26/2015 8:13:25 PM PST by OneWingedShark (Q: Why am I here? A: To do Justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with my God.)
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To: marktwain

So...uh...with Social Security, HHS, IRS, EPA, and every other Fascist agency stocking up on JHP ammo, what’s their standard carry issue?

Full mag and a spare, I’ll bet.


20 posted on 02/26/2015 8:35:55 PM PST by G Larry (I'm not here to make liberals happy.)
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