Goodbye, M9?

wsj ^ | 2/5/2015 | F Jardim

[w1n1]

The U.S. Military Announces A Search For The Next Service Pistol

After 30 years in service with American troops, give or take a few months, the U.S. Military announced formally that it intends to replace the 9mm Beretta M9 pistol with a new Modular Handgun System (MHS) that will address many shortcomings of the generally unpopular M9.

Older readers will recall scratching their head in confusion when the M9 was first adopted in 1985, replacing the .45 ACP M1911 and M1911A1 pistols that had served as the standard sidearm of American soldiers from the Philippine Insurrection through most of the Cold War. The Beretta 92 – what would become the military M9 – was one of the best 9mm pistols around in the mid-1980s. The rest of M9 story here.

[SpaceBar]

In before the “M1911A1 is the best pistol ever made” comments.

[Joe Brower]

This thread has just added to the FreeRepublic "bang list" (firearms interest list) by adding the keyword "banglist".

Any time a firearms-related thread is created on FreeRepublic, please be sure to add the "banglist" keyword to it so that interested FReepers don't miss it. Just a suggestion.

Let Freedom Ring,

Click the pic to go to the Gun Facts v6 download page!

[QuisCustodiet1776]

I don’t think the 1911 is the best pistol design ever. For a combat pistol I would usually prefer larger capacity magazines.

When one is limited to ball it does make .45 more attractive though.

[relictele]

What are the odds that the expensive (and therefore lucrative to, ahem, contractors) MHS process will eventually result in an inferior derivative of a Glock design?

[ßuddaßudd]

How about they start using the FN Five-Seven,,, its already the ‘cop-killer’ here in the US...

[Mastador1]

As I recall the U.S. went to the .45 when they realized that the .38 was ineffective against drugged up Moros.

[rellimpank]

—and by the time the process is completed it will be next decade-—

[alpo]

ParaOrdinance P14

Entreprise made one that held the 14 round Para magazine.

[Erik Latranyi]

9mm is a NATO adopted caliber....like the 5.56, it will be very difficult to change to .45 or .40 (two most likely alternatives)

[Phlyer]

As I recall the U.S. went to the .45 when they realized that the .38 was ineffective against drugged up Moros.

Yes, as the article says. But that was going from a five-shot .39-Special-equivalent (called .38 Long Colt at the time) to an 8-shot .45 ACP. That's a win-win for the new pistol.

It's not so obvious when the choice is 8 rounds of .45 ACP or 16 rounds of 9mm. Where 5 shots of .38-special won't stop a 'drugged up Moro', 15 would be more . . . discouraging.

Actually, the last time around the politics were more important than ballistics anyway. This was at the time of a lot of 'two-way street' ranting where the Euros were upset that they were buying so much US military hardware and we weren't buying any Euro hardware. So the deal was made that the US would replace the 1911 / 1911A1 with a European 9mm design. The only question was which one. Sig won the competition technically but lost on cost to the Beretta (which is why the SEALS and other special operators use Sig P226, and the generals are issued Sig 228s).

I'm a big believer in the Evans and Sarnow data, which show a negligible difference in 'one-shot stops' between 9mm and .45ACP in actual gunfight data. However, those data are based on expanding ammunition. Both make a much bigger hole than .45 with expanding bullets, and the 9mm has more muzzle energy.

However, the military is not allowed to use expanding bullets. For that reason, a bigger, slower bullet is a better answer. Lots of muzzle energy expending on the far scenery doesn't help, so something like .357 Sig doesn't seem like a good idea as it will overpenetrate with ball ammunition. The only counter to this would be if there is a perceived need to penetrate something before entering the body. At pistol ranges, you may be able to develop a .357Sig bullet that would penetrate most personal armor. It would still overpenetrate on unarmored targets, but that might be a legitimate tradeoff.

I'm glad to see the competition, but for civilian use I'll stay with a 9mm and good ammunition.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

The .45 ACP was specifically designed to put down Juramentados.

If a 9MM is what they want you still can’t beat the Browning Hi-Power.

[Chainmail]

Pistols are a close-in weapon - almost a semiauto version of the knife. The M1911A1 is a superb combat weapon because it always works. Always. When it connected, the other guy went down, immediately.

The M9 and the whole corrupt selection process was an abortion from Day 1 and we have imbeciles in the Joint Service Small Arms Program to thank for that. I was unlucky enough to be assigned as a liaison to JSSAP during part of that travesty and had to listen to lectures by “experts”. - who never served in uniform, much less combat - tell us that the 9mm was the best caliber in the world. Being young and not career- oriented, I asked the army colonel running things if “that’s the same 9mm the Germans lost two wars in a row with”. I was told to sit down and shut while the whole room broke up in laughter.

[OneWingedShark]

Come on, man, you gotta at least link to it!

[elcid1970]

The Browning HP is the best. Made of the only materials a gun should be made of, blued steel and wood. Qualified for my CWP with it.

[OneWingedShark]

However, those data are based on expanding ammunition. Both make a much bigger hole than .45 with expanding bullets, and the 9mm has more muzzle energy.

Which IIRC are prohibited by the Hague.

[Chainmail]

Absolutely. If I had to pick an alternative to the .45 1911A1 and it had to be 9mm, the Browning P35 is a superb weapon, bar none.

Same designer.

[Mastador1]

If a 9MM is what they want you still can’t beat the Browning Hi-Power.

Great design, thirteen round magazine, unless you got some thirty round stick back in the day and a hell of a lot of fun to shoot. I have had both Belgian and Hungarian FEG clone and there is no difference between the two.

[556x45]

One thing can be said for sure of the MHS...itll be a dog like the M9 and 1911. The military has a penchant for screwing up small arms selection. The MHS will be an unusable compromise for a laundry list of missions. This is why various military units will continue to select their own HGs that actually fit their missions.

[gundog]

I have had both Belgian and Hungarian FEG clone and there is no difference between the two.

Does the Hungarian have the magazine safety? I handled one that didn't and was wondering if it was all of them. Argentina has 17 round mags, for what it's worth. I think the Hungarian guns started out on Nazi-captured Belgian tooling which was move to Hungary to avoid Allied bombers.