Posted on 05/23/2014 12:07:18 PM PDT by discipler
While I agree with you, I also won't put God in a box, demanding that a certain protocol be followed before He can act. People were saved without baptism, when they had the will, but not the opportunity, to receive it before being persecuted to death. The repentant thief crucified beside Christ is another example.
There is an instance where the first group of Gentiles believed and received the Holy Spirit baptism before they were baptized in water. (Acts 10:44-48) Nevertheless, Peter still insisted that they submit to water baptism immediately. This is even stronger evidence of the necessity of water baptism - who would think that those possessed and sanctified by the Spirit of God would need anything else? But they did.
QUESTION 1: Did Cornelius become saved when he was baptized or when the Holy Ghost fell on him? Notice the words Peter said when the Holy Ghost fell on Cornelius.
Act 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Act 10:44
¶
While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45
And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46
For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
QUESTION 2: Why was St Paul not given a baptizing commission when Jesus called him, And why did he save so many but baptize so few if it was so important?
Co 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
1Co 1:14
I thank God that I baptized none of you, but Crispus and Gaius;
1Co 1:15
Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name.
1Co 1:16
And I baptized also the household of Stephanas: besides, I know not whether I baptized any other.
1Co 1:17
For Christ sent me NOT TO BAPTIZE, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
Thank you for the thoughts. I see it different. Indeed the Holy Spirit fell on the household of people and they spoke tongues. But I don’t think this was more than a sign to the visiting Jews to show that God accepted Gentiles too. As God could speak through Balaam’s donkey without saving the donkey, God spoke through Cornelius. That’s my take. God bless.
You are reading things in there which just aren't there...Trying to make the verses fit the preconceived notion that water baptism is necessary for salvation...
These people were as saved as any person can be before they hit the water....They were indwelt with the Holy Spirit...
Then why the need for water??? Can you answer that???
The requirement for salvation is 'belief'...Repentance...Turning TO God...
When one turns to God he has the remission of sins...The forgiveness of sins...
That's what the scripture says in spite of most everyone twisting the scripture to prove salvation is by water....
Once one realizes one is saved by belief, then the rest of the verse can be understood...And scripture like Acts 10: 44-48 is no longer confusing...
Luk_24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
Act_10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Rom_3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Notice anything??? NO BAPTISM...Remission of sin is by Repentance...Again, no baptism...
Act_2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Peter told them to Repent and be baptized for the remission of sin...
The only way to read and understand these scriptures is to understand that first comes repentance, and then come remission of sins...
Because of that gift of God of remission of sins for our repentance, we are to be baptized...Baptized because of the gift...Be baptized for (because of) the remission of sins...
This is proven out fully with Cornelius and Peter in Acts 10...
Where did you get that idea. Show me what makes you say that or retract your statement! What you seem content to ignore is that believing is more than just saying "I believe". When Jesus said "He who believes and is baptized will be saved" I believe! Now, again, Jesus either lied or He told the truth. I believe Him! You might and have said, what about the verses that simply talk about believing? I agree we must believe and I believe Jesus when He said we must be baptized. "The sum of Thy word is truth" Ps 119:160
Tell me was Moses barred from the land of Canaan because of disobedience or because of unbelief?
Tell me were the children of Israel barred from the land of Canaan because of disobedience or because of unbelief?
I will lean again on the scripture in Rom 1:5 when Paul tells us that obedience comes from faith. Show me your belief in Jesus, and His authority while you tell me baptism is unnecessary.
Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone "
None of those verses say "faith alone". In fact if you will get out your concordance you will find 1 verse that uses the words "faith alone".
"If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture."
You mean like every example of conversion in Acts. Acts 3? Do you read what you post. No account of response is given in Acts 3. But I would ask you to look at vs 22 and quote Jesus. "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." vs 23 "Him you shall hear in all things whatsoever He shall say to you." Jesus said it and Peter in Acts 3 said to do everything He said.
Water baptism and not water baptism? I am convinced that the Apostles spoke of baptism and it was assumed to be by water. Why? Peter mentions it specifically. Peter was sent to Cornelius by the Holy Spirit to tell him what he must do.
Phillip specifically baptized in water when he taught the Eunuch. Note: Phillip was also directed by the Holy Spirit. In Peter's letter 3:19-21 the subject is salvation through water. Perhaps you should consider that the Holy Spirit knew what He was doing when he directed these men to speak and write.
"Paul never made water baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul states that “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,” thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism."
If you will read what I have already written perhaps you could address my argument instead of saying the same thing again. But here it goes again. You miss understand Paul's statement because Paul baptized the first person he taught in Corinth. Why? Perhaps Paul let others to the baptisms since who does it makes no difference. I think Paul is simply saying that baptism with out conversion is simply getting wet.
"Perhaps the most convincing refutation of the view that baptism is necessary for salvation are those who were saved apart from baptism. The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the apostles’ being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3—note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them)."
Again asked and answered. Old Covenant vs New Covenant.
"The Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter’s message. That they were saved before being baptized is evident from their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) before their baptism. Indeed, it is the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit (and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them (cf. v. 47)."
I don't think Cornelius strengthens you point at all. If there was ever a time that the Holy Spirit could have made your point you don't have to be baptized this was it. But instead we see Peter (directed by the Spirit) command it.
I'll tell you what! You find me someone as good as Cornelius and I will tell them the same thing that Peter commanded Cornelius. You can tell them Peter's command was not necessary. Unless you think Peter (actually the Holy Spirit) was lying.
For those who are reading this. Anyone who tells you "the commands of God are unnecessary" is not your friend.
Since the general teaching of the Bible is, as we have seen, that baptism and other forms of ritual are not necessary for salvation..."
You say baptism is not necessary. Then when commands are pointed out, you say it is baptism of the Holy Spirit. So is baptism necessary or not?
God Bless!
Saved. Saved from what?
"when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water. 21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" - 1 Peter 3
Did the water of the Flood save Noah from Noah's sin? Well..."But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord...Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his generation. Noah walked with God."
No, the waters of the Flood did not save Noah from sin, but they DID separate Noah from the evil surrounding world.
And baptism with water corresponds to the Flood. It does not make us sinless in the eyes of God, but separates us from the world. You will notice that water baptism is not said to justify us, but it has a part in "saving" us - and salvation refers to both justification and sanctification.
" "sanctification," is used of (a) separation to God, 1 Cor, 1 Cor. 1:30; 2 Thess. 2:13; 1 Pet. 1:2 (b) the course of life befitting those so separated, 1 Thess. 4:3,4,7; Rom. 6:19,22; 1 Tim. 2:15; Heb. 12:14. "Sanctification is that relationship with God into which men enter by faith in Christ, Acts 26:18; 1 Cor. 6:11, and to which their sole title is the death of Christ, Eph. 5:25,26: Col. 1:22; Heb. 10:10,29; 13:12.
"Sanctification is also used in NT of the separation of the believer from evil things and ways. This sanctification is God's will for the believer, 1 Thess. 4:3, and His purpose in calling him by the gospel, 1 Thess. 4:7; it must be learned from God, 1 Thess. 4:4, as He teaches it by His Word, John 17:17,19; cp. Ps. 17:4; 119:9, and it must be pursued by the believer, earnestly and undeviatingly, 1 Tim. 2:15; Heb. 12:14. For the holy character, hagiosune, 1 Thess. 3:13, is not vicarious, i.e., it cannot be transferred or imputed, it is an individual possession, built up, little by little, as the result of obedience to the Word of God, and of following the example of Christ, Matt. 11:29; John 13:15; Eph. 4:20; Phil. 2:5, in the power of the Holy Spirit, Rom. 8:13; Eph. 3:16."
http://www2.mf.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0002468
You ask me to read the words of Jesus in Mark 16. Setting aside any canon concerns over Mark 16, we read:
"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."
Believes and is baptized will be "saved". But believing alone is associated with "not condemned". This is 100% consistent with my argument, but doesn't make sense with yours.
And in Acts 2 we read:
"And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40 And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” 41 So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls."
On the one hand, Robertson argues:
"Unto the remission of your sins (eis aphesin ). This phrase is the subject of endless controversy as men look at it from the standpoint of sacramental or of evangelical theology. In themselves the words can express aim or purpose for that use of eis does exist as in 1 Corinthians 2:7 eis doxan hen (for our glory). But then another usage exists which is just as good Greek as the use of eis for aim or purpose. It is seen in Matthew 10:41 in three examples...where it cannot be purpose or aim, but rather the basis or ground, on the basis of the name of prophet, righteous man, disciple, because one is, etc. It is seen again in Matthew 12:41 about the preaching of Jonah...They repented because of (or at) the preaching of Jonah. The illustrations of both usages are numerous in the N.T. and the Koiné generally (Robertson, Grammar, p. 592). One will decide the use here according as he believes that baptism is essential to the remission of sins or not. My view is decidedly against the idea that Peter, Paul, or any one in the New Testament taught baptism as essential to the remission of sins or the means of securing such remission. So I understand Peter to be urging baptism on each of them who had already turned (repented) and for it to be done in the name of Jesus Christ on the basis of the forgiveness of sins which they had already received."
While true, I think it is more consistent to point out that we have a couple of sentences summarizing an entire sermon:
"And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.”
And one of the points of that sermon was to save themselves, not from judgment for their sin, but "from this crooked generation” - SANCTIFICATION.
"Again asked and answered. Old Covenant vs New Covenant."
Nope. I see no sign God is as legalistic as you require. Abraham was saved by faith, in the old covenant. So were all who were saved.
"I am convinced that the Apostles spoke of baptism and it was assumed to be by water."
You may be, but Paul specifically says it is baptism in the Holy Spirit that saves us:
"For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...and all were made to drink of one Spirit."
We are not left to guess, and do not need to debate. In the NASB, "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit."
And yes, we know that JESUS baptizes with the Holy Spirit, not water.
Justification, forgiveness of sins and new life come from the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, which seals us upon belief in Christ Jesus: " In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance..."
Not after water baptism, but after they believed, they were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is useful for sanctification, saving us from the evil world around us as the Flood did Noah - but it does not place us IN CHRIST.
“Not after water baptism, but after they believed, they were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. Water baptism is useful for sanctification, saving us from the evil world around us as the Flood did Noah - but it does not place us IN CHRIST”
I’m on my iPhone and will not give a long response. Paul says it does place us in Christ. Romans 6 Gal 3.
Acts 10:47 records Peter speaking to gentiles and as he was speaking the Holy Spirit fell on them before the water baptism. Still , Peter moved the group towards being baptized “in the name of Jesus Christ”” seeing that they has already been spirit baptized. This whole thread is just a tea pot tempest.....the saving part is what God does inside you but Christ’s first command is to be baptized by
water as a first step in the faith. The fruits of one’s life afterward will ultimately show the truth of such a conversion, inwardly and outwardly.
Try refusing to be baptized and see where that leads you at the Final Day.
Three posters who have no created web page on Fr. All preaching the absolute necessity of immersion baptism for remission of sin.
Sounds like a return to the old Campbellite (Churches of Christ) wars we had on FR about eight years ago.
The Baptism of the HOLY SPIRIT places us in Christ. Not water. The baptism given by JESUS CHRIST saves us from sin, not the baptism of water given by man. When the Spirit is poured out, and we are immersed in Him and permeated by Him, we become new creatures IN CHRIST.
In Galatians 3, Paul writes:
“For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
This parallels 1 Cor 12:
“12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. 13 For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
You can read “water” into Galatians 3 if you wish, but it is tough to read water into 1 Cor 12, which parallels it!
Water baptism by man does not place us in Christ. It is when Jesus baptizes us in the Holy Spirit that we are made His, sealed to Him with the Holy Spirit.
“In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”
Your comments have no substance but are only a fallacy with intent to prejudice. Don’t deal with the question....just attack the people.
Sure...Disregard everything the bible says and go with mythology...
You have it completely backwards...Why don't you believe what God says in the scriptures???
Water baptism is NEVER the first step...REPENTANCE is Always the first step (check the bible)...As as God shows us with Cornelius, that repentance is what makes a person a Christian...
Then, because of that Christianity, we are to be baptized...
The fruits of one’s life afterward will ultimately show the truth of such a conversion, inwardly and outwardly.
There is no conversion because someone gets wet...You get wet after the conversion...The fruits of the spirit are the result of the conversion, not getting wet...
I asked a Campbellite preacher if baptism by immersion was absolutely necessary.
He said YES!
I then said..”The Eastern Orthodox practice immersion baptism for the remission of sins, are they saved?”
His response was “NO! They weren’t baptized by a Church of Christ preacher!”
But why is that??? I don't believe in baptism for the remission of sin but I do believe in immersion...
Water baptism (while meaning immersion) biblically represents the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ...
'Some' of us get baptized to show that we have belief in that death (going into the water), burial (going under the water) and resurrection (coming up out of the water)...
How can that be represented with someone sprinkling a couple of drops of water on you???
A person can be sprinkled unknowingly, such as babies...Baptism isn't something a priest or pastor does...Baptism is something you (we) have made a choice to do...It's a testimony of our belief...
I’ll agree with that.
Well no kidding.....! Having been brought to a realization of our sinfulness, confessing such sinfulness, expressing a willingness to repent, asking for a holy spirit change of inner man so that such repentance becomes possible(”can a leopard taking thought change his own spots” Jesus Christ) and sustainable, being made a “new creature”...that’s all part of the package.
But to a poor publican who could barely lift his eyes towards heaven....”God be merciful to me a sinner” confession of his sins was a first step. One must receive grace and forgiveness from God, to create a motivating desire to live a life of repentance. The Holy Spirit invades our hearts and sets up a beach head and the rest of our lives are spent learning more co-operation and trust in him as more of our lives are given over to him until that final giving over, that final death, when we are resurrected in our new glorified bodies, the same such as what Christ has now!
We humans are guilty of so many sins when we come to him, a living confession/prayer/repentance/ and the daily renewal of our inner man must become a way of life... or as the apostle put it “I die daily!!” “To as many as believed gave he the power to become the sons of God!”
“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Cornelius was a righteous man, all ready living a more just life than most Jews. It wasn’t his works or his repentance in and of themselves that saved him....it was his profession of Faith in Jesus Christ and his belief that God has raised him from the grave. Zaccheus met the living Christ first, then announced his repentance of his thievery, since his faith had been empowered by Christ to allow him to do so.
Christ showed a first leadership principle in being baptized...it was easier to encourage his followers to “get wet” in the faith if he got “dunked” himself.
I won’t get into semantics with you about such and such salvation, chicken and egg baptism ect ect., then a basket of bread and a howdy do brother and what comes first and who’s on second!
Most down and out sinners who come to an awareness of their sin and express their desire for change but realize they have no power in and of themselves to change, need a Holy Spirit infusion badly. To even be brought to a point where, like the fly caught in a web, they can only squeak out a tiny “help me Lord!”, needs facilitation by the Holy Spirit. The evidence of such a salvation will be the life of repentance they lead afterward...”living day by day” as the Lord said( “for the morrow has sufficient evil stored up for itself”)
Why are believers baptized?
That's what repentance is; turning ones heart to Jesus...
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