Posted on 05/23/2014 12:07:18 PM PDT by discipler
For me, I will take the word of Paul over the "Jewish thought"
Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:4
He was declared saved by the chief priest of the order of Melchizedek not after the priestly order of Aaron. It was the the chief priest after the order of Melchizidek who came as the fulfillment of the law not a priest after the order of Aaron. Thus Christ has all authority to forgive sins or to punish according to those sins. Melchizidek functions in a way that while recognizing the devestation of sin, it seeks to restore that which is lost. The levitical Aaron priesthood merely condemns after the law declaring those such affected as worthy of death.
He was declared saved by the chief priest of the order of Melchizedek not after the priestly order of Aaron. It was the the chief priest after the order of Melchizidek who came as the fulfillment of the law not a priest after the order of Aaron. Thus Christ has all authority to forgive sins or to punish according to those sins. Melchizidek functions in a way that while recognizing the devestation of sin, it seeks to restore that which is lost. The levitical Aaron priesthood merely condemns after the law declaring those such affected as worthy of death.
“What must we do to be saved?”
Act 16:31
And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
“For me, I will take the word of Paul over the “Jewish thought”
I gather you are willing to ignore John the Baptist? And why did Paul rarely baptize others with water, if water baptism cleansed sin? Why did Jesus emphasize the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why did Paul do likewise? Why are we sealed with the Holy Spirit, if it is H2O that saves, or some magic formula?
Why are there hundreds of verses about believing and faith, if it is water that washes away sin?
The Baptism of Jesus is with the Holy Spirit - to be immersed in Him, and controlled by Him. Or it is the fire of judgment. But the Baptism of Jesus is never one of water...
***”For you are saved by grace through faith” Eph 2:8,9 [works are important, even necessary, but only by faith in God is one saved] ****
Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9
NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast.
Rom 4:2
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
Rom 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Rom 4:4
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Rom 4:5
¶
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Rom 4:6
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
Rom 4:7
Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Rom 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Not too many things get brands of Christians throwing chairs at each other faster than the topic of babdism.
Mark 16:
15And he [Jesus] said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
John 3:
5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Acts 2:
37Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
It sounds as if baptism is not only very important, but essential.
That said, it is not a talisman that affects the unbelieving or those below the age of reason. I am thoroughly against infant/child baptism.
Lurk, indeed!
fwdude, yes they are deluded. Thank you for commenting.
"I gather you are willing to ignore John the Baptist?
It is very apparent that Paul taught that Christian baptism is an reenactment of the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Romans 6 John the Baptist was living and operating under the Old Law. There was no death, burial and resurrection. His baptism was a baptism of repentance for the forgiveness of sin. Mark 1:4 (Note the precedence is set that God forgave sins by baptism. A truth that many say can't be. That is that baptism is directly related to forgiveness.) It seems that the only ones ignoring John the Baptist are those same people. Also Paul (who you say rarely baptized) baptized into Christ some who had only been baptized by John's baptism thus showing that John's baptism was for a time before the death of Christ.
" And why did Paul rarely baptize others with water, if water baptism cleansed sin?" and " Why did Jesus emphasize the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and why did Paul do likewise? "
I will take these two together. That he did it at all should be enough. Do we really believe that Bible is written by the Holy Spirit. It seems that many do not. Paul says in I Cor "I did not come to baptize...", and then tells us he baptized the first person he taught in Corinth. Peter said baptism was for the forgiveness of sin. Ananias said baptism was for the forgiveness of sin. Paul said baptism was for the forgiveness of sin. That is either the truth or it is a lie but it can not be both! As to the baptism of he Holy Spirit, that is exactly what Peter says happens when we are baptized into Christ. "You shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit"
"Why are we sealed with the Holy Spirit, if it is H2O that saves, or some magic formula?"
We are sealed by the Holy Spirit when we obey God's command. Who said that it was the H2O that saved? It was not me and it was not Peter. We are saved just like Nahaman was cleansed in the river Jordan. No magic in the water but salvation in the obedience. Magic formula? You mean like the sinners prayer? Certainly you and I can separate the difference between magic and obedience.
Why are there hundreds of verses about believing and faith, if it is water that washes away sin?"
Lets take a close look at one of them. Col 2:11,12 "In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God..."
It seems plain to me that Paul said baptism is faith in the work of God. Could it be that those who rail against baptism do not have faith in God?
Right, Peter quotes Joel 2 and says “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” Then they are pricked by the message and ask what do we need to do? Peter said, “Repent and be baptized [note that some will call this Holy Spirit baptism, but that doesn’t follow after considering what was commanded in the great commission and it doesn’t follow that right after he says...] for the remission of sins AND YOU SHALL RECEIVE THE GIFT OF THE HOLY SPIRIT. Since the Holy Spirit isn’t received until after repentance and baptism AND forgiveness of sins [which makes sense since the H.S. won’t dwell in an unsanctified vessel]. The other passages I referenced in original post show that Baptism is the place a sinner is saved [not by water, not by works] but by the power and grace of God. God bless you all. discipler
Right on!
Man confesses. Therefore a work of man.
Man repents. Therefore a work of man.
Man believes. Therefore a work of man.
God baptizes!
Now who is advocating salvation by works of man? Perhaps a some have become like the Pharisees and lawyers. Luke 7:30
MacArthur was wrong on that. 1 Cor. 12 shows that everyone doesn’t have the supernatural gifts, including what is categorized as the least of the gifts: speaking in tongues [which was a real language, a utility of the Holy Spirit to spread the Gospel to peoples of other tongues]. Even the best of theologians can be blind to some things.
Baptism is a washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit that ought never be despised by those who know they are creatures under the hand of the Creator. The promise is to you and to your children and to all who are afar off. Pure grace. One Savior. All sinners. But do not stumble when those who come at the last hour; whose righteousness by all appearances is lacking. The wicked take pride in their sin and encourage it. The righteous flee from it, but are not immune to weakness.
You’re right, TheZMan, the thief on the cross ends the debate - if you are on the other side of the cross, before the death, which is when the Old Covenant was ended and the New Covenant was established [Heb 9:15 shows that the testament goes into effect only at the death of the testator. So the baptism to which this post is addressing, was not commanded UNTIL AFTER THE RESURRECTION.] But you are right, if we are talking about pre-death of Christ, then you might be in good standing by following that example. But since the time of the resurrection and the establishment of the New Testament, the command is make disciples and baptize them. And if you look at the passages I referenced in my original post, you will see that there’s an urgency to be baptized. Hard to get around...Nay, impossible to get around. Respectfully yours, disciper
Thank you for posting these blessed scriptures and I believe them every one. When I said works are necessary, I don’t mean in the “works salvation” sense that some use it. All of our righteousness are as filthy rags. I won’t make it into heaven based on my righteousness. So I agree that faith in Christ - not works - is what saves. But Jesus pointed out something important that belief in and love for Him are shown by obedience. Because He’s Lord and Master, the very moment a person understands that, He obeys. Without the obedience, He doesn’t respect the faith. God bless you. discipler
What is the Baptism of Jesus? How does JESUS baptize us? Does the Spirit give life, or water? Is the Holy Spirit the mark of a Christian, or water baptism?
You also seem content to ignore the hundreds of verse about faith & believing.
Jhn 20:31 but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.
1Cr 1:21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.
Mat 9:22 Jesus turned, and seeing her he said, “Take heart, daughter; your faith has made you well.” And instantly the woman was made well.
Mat 9:29 Then he touched their eyes, saying, “According to your faith be it done to you.”
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.
Mar 2:5 And when Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “My son, your sins are forgiven.”
Mar 5:34 And he said to her, “Daughter, your faith has made you well; go in peace, and be healed of your disease.”
Jhn 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
Jhn 3:15 “that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Jhn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Jhn 3:18 “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
Jhn 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
John 6: “27 Do not work for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you. For on him God the Father has set his seal.” 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”
We are saved by grace thru faith, not grace thru baptism.
Look at the verses quoted in the article:
“Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,” Mt 28:19
“For you are saved by grace through faith” Eph 2:8,9
” And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; 15 for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. 16 And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ - Acts 22
“26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.” Gal. 3:26,27
You assume the baptism that counts is WATER baptism. But Jesus doesn’t do a water baptism. Jesus baptizes us in the Holy Spirit, and it is the Holy Spirit indwelling in us that gives us life. Water baptism is just the splashing of H2O, and it HAS value in SALVATION, because salvation includes SANCTIFICATION, and water baptism does have value in sanctification (separating us from the world).
But it is being baptized by JESUS in the Holy Spirit that gives us life.
The Apostle Paul says this explicitly and indisputably:
“For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slaves or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit.” (1 Cor 12)
How do we become Christians? PAUL writes “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body...” Not baptism with water, but the baptism Jesus does, when he pours the Holy Spirit out on us!
I think it is well described below:
“We are going to learn today four things that Trinity Bible Church believes the Bible teaches about baptism. The first one is this: we believe in Spirit baptism. We believe in Spirit baptism, and all the Pentecostals said, “Amen.” For some of you this might be confusing. Wait a second. You are a non-charismatic, non-Pentecostal church, so what do you mean when you say you believe in Spirit baptism? Well, that word “baptism” does not always imply “water” in the New Testament. Sometimes it has other meanings than being dipped or dunked or sprinkled or poured with water. Sometimes it is completely divorced from the notion of water. Let me give you a couple of examples. First of all, in Mark 10:37-38, James and John come to Jesus and say, “’Permit one of us to sit at your right hand and the other on your left in your glory.’ But Jesus said to them, ‘You don’t know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup I drink or be baptized with the baptism I experience?’” Well, this was long after Jesus experienced water baptism. What is he talking about? He is talking about his suffering. Jesus is talking about his own destruction, his own death, when he says, “Are you able to be baptized with the baptism I experience?” He is not even implying “water” in this context. Incidentally, he is talking about his death and he uses Trinity’s two sacraments and ordinances to symbolically represent his death — “the cup I drink” (communion, the Lord’s Table), and “the baptism with which I am baptized.”
Another passage of the same vein that runs through this passage is Luke 12:50: Jesus says, “’I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is finished!’” Again, water baptism is not in view here. Something else is in view and the context would demand that he is talking about his death. He is talking about his suffering. He is talking about his own destruction. He is talking about hanging on the cross and receiving the sentence of the world. That is the baptism he is talking about. Elsewhere in the New Testament, the term “baptism” is seen as not referring to water. In those other contexts it talks about Spirit baptism. We will slip in a couple of those.
In Mark 1:8, John the Baptist says, “’I baptize you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.’” It is John the Baptist who first talks about water baptism, which is John’s ministry. Oh, but Jesus’ ministry is different. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit. Water is not in view here. A Spirit baptism is in view. This same notion is repeated in all the synoptic Gospels — Matthew, Mark, and Luke. It is also repeated in Acts 1:5, right before the Spirit of God comes on Pentecost and the saints there, the community of believers, are baptized by the Spirit. They receive the Holy Spirit. He is poured out on them. It is also repeated later in the book of Acts, as looking back at what Jesus’ ministry was. He was going to baptize them with the Holy Spirit.
For any Bible church, 1 Corinthians 12 draws the doctrine for Spirit baptism. It says this in verse 13: “For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body. Whether Jews or Greeks or slaves or free, we were all made to drink of the one Spirit.” All of us have been baptized in the Spirit. The Spirit has baptized us into one body; and so, Trinity Bible Church believes in Spirit baptism. There are a couple of points of clarification, however. We believe that at conversion, the Spirit baptizes an individual. When you trust Jesus Christ to be your Savior and Lord, you receive the Holy Spirit — as much of the Holy Spirit as you will ever receive — at that moment of salvation. The Spirit of God comes to indwell the believer. He is “the seal, … the down payment of our inheritance,” according to Ephesians 1. He comes to reside within the individual believer. We will never receive more of the Holy Spirit. There is no such thing as a second baptism or a second blessing later on. Salvation is the point where we receive the Holy Spirit. We do not receive the Holy Spirit when we are baptized in water. There is no relationship between being baptized in water and being baptized by the Holy Spirit. A person is baptized by the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation.
Another point of clarification is that when a person is baptized by the Holy Spirit at conversion, he or she does not necessarily speak in tongues. I am dispelling a lot of the doctrines of a lot of churches. Some of this may be over your head because you do not have those church backgrounds. I am telling you Trinity Bible Church’s distinctives (what we believe the Bible teaches). When a person is baptized by the Holy Spirit at conversion, it is not evidenced by speaking in tongues. Sometimes it was in the book of Acts, at that time, for those reasons. But sometimes it is not evidenced in the book of Acts by speaking in tongues. So, we do believe in Spirit baptism, but we define that carefully. An individual is baptized by the Holy Spirit at the point of salvation, and will never have more of the Spirit later on. That is apart from water baptism.”
https://bible.org/seriespage/baptism-flood-confusion
Also here:
“Is baptism necessary for salvation? No. Let’s examine what the Scriptures teach on this issue:
First, it is quite clear from such passages as Acts 15 and Romans 4 that no external act is necessary for salvation. Salvation is by divine grace through faith alone (Romans 3:22, 24, 25, 26, 28, 30; 4:5; Galatians 2:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 3:9, etc.).
If water baptism were necessary for salvation, we would expect to find it stressed whenever the gospel is presented in Scripture. That is not the case, however. Peter mentioned baptism in his sermon on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38). However, in his sermon from Solomon’s portico in the Temple (Acts 3:12-26), Peter makes no reference to baptism, but links forgiveness of sin to repentance (3:19). If baptism is necessary for the forgiveness of sin, why didn’t Peter say so in Acts 3?
Paul never made water baptism any part of his gospel presentations. In 1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Paul gives a concise summary of the gospel message he preached. There is no mention of baptism. In 1 Corinthians 1:17, Paul states that “Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel,” thus clearly differentiating the gospel from baptism.
Those passages are difficult to understand if water baptism is necessary for salvation. If baptism were part of the gospel itself, necessary for salvation, what good would it have done Paul to preach the gospel, but not baptize? No one would have been saved. Paul clearly understood water baptism to be separate from the gospel, and hence in no way efficacious for salvation.
Perhaps the most convincing refutation of the view that baptism is necessary for salvation are those who were saved apart from baptism. The penitent woman (Luke 7:37-50), the paralytic man (Matthew 9:2), the publican (Luke 18:13-14), and the thief on the cross (Luke 23:39-43) all experienced forgiveness of sins apart from baptism. For that matter, we have no record of the apostles’ being baptized, yet Jesus pronounced them clean of their sins (John 15:3—note that the Word of God, not baptism, is what cleansed them).
The Bible also gives us an example of people who were saved before being baptized. In Acts 10:44-48, Cornelius and those with him were converted through Peter’s message. That they were saved before being baptized is evident from their reception of the Holy Spirit (v. 44) and the gifts of the Spirit (v. 46) before their baptism. Indeed, it is the fact that they had received the Holy Spirit (and hence were saved) that led Peter to baptize them (cf. v. 47).
The New Testament does not teach that baptism is necessary for salvation.One of the basic principles of biblical interpretation is the analogia scriptura, the analogy of Scripture—we must compare Scripture with Scripture in order to understand its full and proper sense. Since the Bible doesn’t contradict itself, any interpretation of a specific passage that contradicts the general teaching of the Bible is to be rejected.
Since the general teaching of the Bible is, as we have seen, that baptism and other forms of ritual are not necessary for salvation, no individual passage could teach otherwise. Thus we must look for interpretations of those passages that will be in harmony with the general teaching of Scripture...”
http://www.gty.org/Resources/Questions/QA79#.TkaZaGNN-l4
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