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Calling All Christians: Luke 22:36 is NOT license to fight the government. (VANITY)
Me | 03/19/2013 | Me

Posted on 03/19/2013 3:55:47 PM PDT by ROTB

Hello Brothers and Sisters –

There’s an insidious heresy going around the Body of Christ. It sounds something like this:

[Because of the license given by the LORD Jesus to believers in Luke 22:36-38 to carry and use deadly weapons, I say, “Better the death of Masada than the death of Dachau when the government illegally violates the 2nd amendment, and lawlessly comes to confiscate my gun(s)]”.

Before we begin, let’s remember that Scripture has no contradictions per John 10:35, and per 2 Timothy 2:15 there is a right and wrong way to interpret scripture. It is even possible per 2 Peter 3:16 to twist scripture to our own destruction.

Let’s look at Luke 22:36-38 more closely. I always put scripture in bold, and the words of the LORD Jesus are in bold red.

Then said he unto them, “But now, he that hath a purse, let him take [it], and likewise [his] scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one. For I say unto you, that this that is written must yet be accomplished in me, And he was reckoned among the transgressors: for the things concerning me have an end.And they said, Lord, behold, here [are] two swords. And he said unto them, “It is enough.

Luke 22:36-38

We will now break down the above three verses laboriously so we understand exactly what is being said in each part:

He that has no sword … let him buy one”

the disciples should acquire swords

that this that is written

so the Scripture I am about to quote

must yet be accomplished in me

must and will happen right now to me

And he

Isaiah 53:12 being quoted: he = Jesus

was reckoned among the transgressors

Isaiah 53:12 being quoted: was counted with sinners

And they said, “Lord, behold, here [are] two swords

the disciples tell Jesus they have two swords

Jesus says, “It is enough”

Jesus confirms the disciples have enough swords to fulfill Isaiah 53:12

I have parsed Luke 22:36-38 in a way that is consistent with classic commentaries on Luke 22:36-38 by Matthew Henry and Jamieson Fausset & Brown, and you will find they don’t give any license at all to taking up arms against authorities.

Jesus wanted the disciples to buy swords, so scripture could be fulfilled when His disciples wielded swords and made themselves "transgressors" for Jesus to be "reckoned among the transgressors."

So, if you also want to be a “transgressor”, despite scripture telling us to be “perfect” in Matthew 5:48, Matthew 19:21, Luke 6:40, John 17:23, 1 Corinthians 2:6, 2 Corinthians 13:11, Philippians 3:15, 1 Thessalonians 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:17, Hebrews 13:21, don’t pray for yourself to grow and for others to be saved, drop your Bible, pick up your gun, and steel yourself to fight the government agents who may come for it.

Jesus said the word never contradicts itself in John 10:35. So when Jesus, who is the Word, and LORD, and the 2nd person of the Godhead, said in Matthew 26:52, “Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword, it is in perfect harmony with the above interpretation of Luke 22:36-38.

Otherwise, you would have to think that the LORD God, who made every star, world, plant and animal in all their glorious majesty and order in 6 days, and is called Master, and LORD, the Rock, and The Good Shepherd, would so plainly contradict Himself.

So when scripture says very plainly in 1 Peter 2:13 that we should, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as to them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well, no license is given to us to rebel against governing authorities. If you think you’re only supposed to submit to a nation’s laws if the laws are “good” and “not evil” in your eyes, please show me the Scriptures that justify this point of view. I could have missed them.

If despite all the above scripture, your attitude is still that of “God will forgive me for rebelling and fighting the government when they come for my guns” then ask yourself if God would also forgive witchcraft given 1 Samuel 15:23 says “rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft”. If your response is that “The context of 1 Samuel 15:23 is rebellion against God, not against government.” Then I must point you to Romans 13:4 which that government “bears not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that does evil”. Government is a minister of God. Therefore, if rebellion against God is sin per 1 Samuel 15:23, why is rebellion against a “minister of God” per Romans 13:4 NOT sin? If government forces kill you when you rebel with arms, it’s with God’s backing and approval. Titus 3:1 echoes Romans 13:4 and 1 Peter 2:13 in that we as Christians are to be subject to whatever government is placed by God over us. Jude 1:8 even associates those who “despise dominion” with a host of other unsavory and damnable sins.

Many a self-professed Christian “patriot” who would think nothing of pointing a gun at a government agent and squeezing the trigger, would quickly and decisively declare they would never partake in witchcraft, since it is so clearly a damnable sin committed by the arch-enemies of Jesus Christ.

Yet, the rebellion you still desire “is asdamnable witchcraft in God’s eyes.

Also, again, when you rebel with arms, you invite China/Russia/etc parking a few subs off our coasts or carriers, and nuking our ICBM fields and military bases during the confusion caused by CW2. China/Russia/etc would be fools not to take advantage of your rebellion, and they are not fools.

Furthermore, it is not necessary at all to fight tyrannical government with physical arms if we:

  1. take up the New Covenant defensive and offensive spiritual weapons of God per Ephesians 6:12 and 2 Corinthians 10:3-4 against evil spirits that stir up our elected and appointed officials to do evil

  2. we pray with faith since God can control and guide the hearts of President Obama, Congress, the Supreme Court, government bureaucrats, governors, mayors, state legislators, city councils, the Police, and our Armed Forces per Proverbs 21:1, and we are commanded to pray for them per 1 Timothy 2:1-3. We pray that many witnesses of the Gospel be sent to them per Matthew 9:37, they be convicted of sin like in Acts 2:37, and that God grants them repentance per 2 Timothy 2:25

Only then will our politicians lead us with ever increasing prudence, and Godly wisdom. I'm talking about prayer for President Obama, Congress, and others in government.

I have carefully interpreted Luke 22:36-38, and found two classic Christian commentaries that agree with my interpretation.

We're Christians, so if our feelings contradict Scripture, they are error.

After I stood face to face with a Mormon and tore down Joseph Smith and/or the reliability of the Book of Mormon, he put his hands on his chest, looked at me very earnestly, and told me that the Holy Spirit tells him the Book of Mormon is of God. In truth, that was a lying deceiving spirit in that Mormon. Mormonism was founded on the premise that the Church founded in the 1st century with the LORD'S promise in Matthew 16:18 that it would never fall, actually did fall, making Jesus who is the truth, into a liar.

Therefore, to avoid error we need to give scriptural reasons for why we believe what we believe, and do what we do.

To give a scriptural reply of substance you might:

  1. Parse Luke 22:36-38 in an intelligible way where the disciples are NOT transgressors

  2. Find a reputable commentary that agrees with your position

  3. Given John 10:35 says scripture has no contradictions, please explain how your interpretation of Luke 22:36-38 does not conflict with:

    1. Matthew 26:52 which says, “Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.’

    1. Matthew 5:44 which says, “Love your enemies.

    2. Titus 3:1-2 which says, “Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work, To speak evil of no man, to be no brawlers, [but] gentle, shewing all meekness unto all men.

    3. 1 Peter 2:13-14 which says, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as unto them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well.

    4. Romans 13:1-2 which says, “Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resists the power, resists the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Too many times have I posted calls to prayer for the conviction, salvation to saving faith in Jesus Christ, and repentance of our politicians, the Democrats, the Communists, the Muslims, and other assorted 5th column type people in the USA, and the response here on has typically been, “[I’m not going to pray for them, this country is going down the tubes, Jesus said in Luke 22:36 I’m allowed to shoot people, so when the government sends soldiers or police for my guns, there’ll be hell to pay.]

I pray the Holy Spirit convict us, so we return to the true faith of Jesus Christ, that our nation be saved. Luke 22:36 was never meant as license for Christians to take up arms.

TOPICS: Government; History; Politics; Religion
KEYWORDS: coward; cowards; government; history; politics; religion; treason; troll; zot
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Is the circus in town? I've never seen so many hoops being jumped at once. And you have the nerve to call yourself a Christian? You are the worst kind of coward and hypocrite. Just a few of the human traits that God hates.

You want to quote and interpret scripture? I leave you with something that doesn't require any interpretation:

1st Timothy 5:8: But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

41 posted on 03/19/2013 5:51:48 PM PDT by semaj
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To: ROTB; Everybody

This thread is disappointing. ROTB posts his piece, then a few comments, then disappears. Then everybody else gets on and calls ROTB names. It’s not much of a discussion. ROTB, why won’t you defend yourself and explain yourself? And everybody else, chill out, and discuss the issues based on what ROTB has to say. If you believe ROTB is wrong, explain why, but without name calling.
Unless these two things happen, it’s a wasted thread.

42 posted on 03/19/2013 6:22:18 PM PDT by River Hawk
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Even if I were to accept all of your scriptural interpretations as true, you are still forgetting the other side of the equation. If I accept that rebellion against our government is a sin, my next question is: what exactly is our government? The old countries had a king, whose legitimacy as ruler is assumed as a divine right, and his word was law. We live in a Constitutional Republic. The right to govern (rule) exists only with the consent of the governed (exercised by voting), and MUST abide by the US Constitution.

Well, if we examine all of the ways in which our current "government" is operating outside of its Constitutional limitations, and if we also examine the amount of voter fraud which has occurred, AND if we examine the amount of lies spread through a government controlled media, we clearly realize that the organization which calls itself our government is, actually, illegitimate. Our government is ONLY legitimate if it operates within the highest law of the land - the Constitution, and they are not doing so.

The Biblical kings did not have a Constitution to limit them, so their legitimacy was never in question. Our government is a different animal, and so has rules it must follow to maintain its legitimacy.

Once you understand that our government is not legitimate, then your Biblical argument falls apart. We would not be rebelling if the organization we rebel against is not our legitimate government. If we restored the Republic and THEN rebelled against it, you might have a point. But to rebel against an illegitimate government in order to restore the legitimate government would be not only be acceptable Biblically, it would be REQUIRED.
43 posted on 03/19/2013 6:27:25 PM PDT by fr_freak
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To: River Hawk

Amen River Hawk, Amen.

Remember the passionate informative discussions that were once FreeRepublic?

I miss the old FR.

44 posted on 03/19/2013 6:32:13 PM PDT by Chickensoup (200 million unarmed people killed in the 20th century by Leftist Totalitarian Fascists)
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To: Chickensoup

Thanks, good point.

45 posted on 03/19/2013 6:45:55 PM PDT by River Hawk
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Luke 22:36 is NOT license to take up arms against the government.

It also isn't a license to make tuna fish salad.

Where does this assumption to take up arms against the government come from? Nowhere around here.

We have an inalienable right to defend ourselves. This includes from enemies of the Constitution, both foreign and domestic.

The 2nd Amendment is essentially the expression of an inalienable right to kill people when they are violating the Constitution of the United States, if they are threatening our very existence and even if they happen to be domestic enemies of the Constitution.

The government is not immune from living by the Constitution, nor from the consequences of its use of deadly force if domestic enemies of the Constitution attempted to use deadly force against other domestic friends of the Constitution.

46 posted on 03/19/2013 6:46:23 PM PDT by Cvengr (Adversity in life and death is inevitable. Thru faith in Christ, stress is optional.)
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To: River Hawk

>ROTB, why won’t you defend yourself and explain yourself?


Today, everyone gets to make their cases in response to my posting, and tomorrow I’ll respond.

In the meantime, I have some other work to do.

47 posted on 03/19/2013 6:49:33 PM PDT by ROTB (CW2 = nuking & invasion. Pray for repentance, & our leaders.
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To: River Hawk

Look at his prior posts. He posts this over and over and the main push is to get you to his webstie to join his group.

48 posted on 03/19/2013 6:54:42 PM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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OK, looking forward to it.

49 posted on 03/19/2013 6:55:15 PM PDT by River Hawk
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To: Marcella

So you say he’s pushing an agenda? Isn’t everybody? What’s important is how he defends his agenda. I’m willing to hear him out.

50 posted on 03/19/2013 6:56:37 PM PDT by River Hawk
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Jesus didn’t “tap out”.

51 posted on 03/19/2013 7:04:04 PM PDT by 2111USMC (aim small, miss small)
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To: fr_freak
I think you make valid points about legitimacy.

We are the governing authority in the United States of America.

A country established under God but being turned over to Satan.

Those Who have done this will be judged.

I am praying and I am fighting them.

It is better to give scripture in full context.

Romans 13

New International Version (NIV)

Submission to Governing Authorities

13 Let everyone be subject to the governing authorities, for there is no authority except that which God has established. The authorities that exist have been established by God. 2 Consequently, whoever rebels against the authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and those who do so will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers hold no terror for those who do right, but for those who do wrong. Do you want to be free from fear of the one in authority? Then do what is right and you will be commended. 4 For the one in authority is God’s servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for rulers do not bear the sword for no reason. They are God’s servants, agents of wrath to bring punishment on the wrongdoer. 5 Therefore, it is necessary to submit to the authorities, not only because of possible punishment but also as a matter of conscience.

6 This is also why you pay taxes, for the authorities are God’s servants, who give their full time to governing. 7 Give to everyone what you owe them: If you owe taxes, pay taxes; if revenue, then revenue; if respect, then respect; if honor, then honor.

52 posted on 03/19/2013 7:09:02 PM PDT by right way right (What's it gonna take? (guillotines?))
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He was also crucified between two criminals, which could be interpreted as being “reckoned among transgressors.” But then your whole argument about swords becomes irrelevant.

53 posted on 03/19/2013 7:29:50 PM PDT by Disambiguator
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Luke 22:36 is NOT license to take up arms against the government.

No one here has said it does say exactly that. We do have constitutional license to prevent the tyranny of an oppressive regime such as the Marxist coup we witness being installed this very day.

Your attempt to cast contempt on those of us who realize the evilness of what is happening, and use biblical passages to dissuade us from using our God given rights to prevent the destruction of this once great nation is despicable at the very least.

Being that you choose to use the Word of God to implement this deceit, I’ll leave you with this passage from that same Holy document as it seems relevant to the political upheaval we find ourselves in:

Matthew 18:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire

54 posted on 03/19/2013 7:58:24 PM PDT by JDoutrider
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To: US Navy Vet; ROTB


It looks like the sniveling little sky-pilot has run for shelter.

That, or he is now eating Kiwi polish right out of the can and can’t type...

55 posted on 03/19/2013 8:05:05 PM PDT by headsonpikes (Mass murder and cannibalism are the twin sacraments of socialism - "Who-whom?"-Lenin)
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To: headsonpikes
“It looks like the sniveling little sky-pilot has run for shelter.”

He will be back to try to get you to turn over your firearms and ammo and submit to and love Hussein's henchmen government and try to get you to his website to build up his numbers. He's another Hussein from a different direction, trying to convolute the Bible to convince you that you are an unbeliever or committing sin if you oppose the government. He gets his kicks this way.

56 posted on 03/19/2013 8:28:28 PM PDT by Marcella (Prepping can save your life today. Going Galt is freedom.)
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There are a couple of things I think you should study:

1. The doctrine of self defense. I will not make you a Bible study on it. There are plenty of good studies out there. Search “biblical doctrine of self defense” or “biblical doctrine of defense of others.”

2. The doctrine of a “just war.” There is such thing as a “just war.” What situation in the U.S. would meet the conditions where you could/should take up arms?

3. The doctrine of the “lesser magistrate.” This is a little referenced principle wherein, when the greater magistrate has gone overall crazy or incompetent, a lesser magistrate may lawfully take over - and you may follow him. The best analogy of this is the takeover of a ship by the first mate if the Captain is abusing the sailors.

These are weighty matters not covered by sound bites, but they are real and need to be carefully considered. The doctrine of the lesser magistrate was the basis by which many of the seriously God-fearing colonists fought for their independence. Note they did NOT fight a war of rebellion - they did not try to take over England or replace the king. They just fought to be free of his (tyrannical) rule, in submission to lesser magistrates.

57 posted on 03/19/2013 8:37:55 PM PDT by Persevero (Homeschooling for Excellence since 1992)
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no, it’s not is in the moment and if you wer sincere you would reply as it happened...that is the way debates go here. What you are doing is presenting your very weak “version” of Jesus, then sitting back and watching the reactions, rather than engaging. Weak weak weak...and Jeus took violence out on the temple idiots that were ripping off the people. What kind of example was that? Come on now...wake up .

58 posted on 03/19/2013 8:38:29 PM PDT by fabian (" And a new day will dawn for those who stand long, and the forests will echo in laughter")
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To: fr_freak; ROTB

I submit ROTB is woefully unread in the history of our Founding in regards to the War of Independence.

Had he read the Founders, even those like Dickerson who feared breaking Romans 13 in rebelling against the Crown, he would note several things.

One, it was agreed in light of scriptural admonitions God required of a king - that a king loses his right to rule a free people governed by God. As Minister Jonathan Mayhew wrote:

“As soon as the prince sets himself up above law, he loses the king in the tyrant. He does, to all intents and purposes, unking himself by acting out of and beyond that sphere which the constitution allows him to move in; and in such cases he has no more right to be obeyed than any inferior officer who acts beyond his commission.”

Mayhew in essence fired the first shot of the American Revolution - and used the bible to sermonize on the Rights of the Colonists to defy, defend and fight the Crown’s tyranny that was being felt across the Colonies.

In every instance of a tyranny of men, the rulers replace God and make the people worship the king or the state. Such is breaking the First Commandment when a people are born into the gift of liberty.

Top-down government, Caste or Central Planning is of Satan, and NOT of God. Jesus specifically calls this out among Christians in Matthew 20:25-26, and a government instituted among Christian peoples was to be a SERVANT of the people in accord with Jesus’ words.

The moment such government becomes a ruler of the people - they have lost all legitimacy to rule a free people, and submitting to such tyrants is to let Satan rule over the people, because without fail - such a tyranny of men will cast God out - and demand the king and the state be worshipped and obeyed over God.

For all the Christians who avow they will die for Jesus - it is instructive to know how many will not even let the concept of resisting a gift from Jesus from being robbed from them and their children.

Because Christians in America have bought a Satanic lie; that it is a sin to judge sin and evil and resist it. ROTB unwittingly perpetrates such a lie in admonishing Americans to submit to tyranny, and refuse to act against it. As the Apostle Paul wrote, a little leaven leavens the whole lump (Galatians 5:9).

Sin by it’s very nature is NEVER content to sit alongside righteousness or liberty. It will ALWAYS seek to subjugate and force itself upon a God-fearing people, making itself more important than God.

This is one of the reasons why the Founders, in their inspired wisdom, made sure our right to arms was enshrined as an inalienable right.

A right ROTB seems to suggest we should lay down.

59 posted on 03/19/2013 8:54:14 PM PDT by INVAR ("Fart for liberty, fart for freedom and fart proudly!" - Benjamin Franklin)
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So when scripture says very plainly in 1 Peter 2:13 that we should, “Submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord's sake: whether it be to the king, as supreme; Or unto governors, as to them that are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers, and for the praise of them that do well”, no license is given to us to rebel against governing authorities.

Our "governing authority" is for all practical purposes the Constitution, and not some living, breathing, human authority like a king or governor. It is not possible for someone to be in a state of "rebellion" while faithfully supporting and defending the constitution, even if this means that someone is at odds with one official or all of them. You see, it is often as not the "authority" or government official who is in rebellion... against the constitution. Opposing such officials does not a rebellion make, though being a constitutional republic there are procedures to be followed before going "last resort."

60 posted on 03/19/2013 8:58:34 PM PDT by piasa (Attitude adjustments offered here free of charge)
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