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Disarmed Citizens Became Helpless Victims in Colorado Shooting
The Red Side of Life Conservative Musings from New York ^ | 7/20/12 | RedInNewYork

Posted on 07/20/2012 2:08:36 PM PDT by jmstein7

The fatal shootings in Colorado today underscore the dangerous consequences of so-called "gun control." Had but one - ONE - citizen in the the theater been lawfully armed, this tragedy could have been avoided. Instead, as a result of gun control, and those who peddle this dangerous - and unconstitutional - policy, an entire theater full of disarmed citizens were left defenseless - victims. This is an outrage.

Take notice that these crimes do not happen in Right-to-Carry states, such as Texas... it simply does not happen. The point is well conceded - by real statistics - that Right-to-Carry states have significantly lower rates of total violent crime (by 26 percent),  murder (31 percent),  robbery (50 percent!), and aggravated assault (15 percent). Armed citizens are safe citizens. Armed families are safe families. The proof is in the numbers.

The upshot to today's shootings should be vocal demands that our Federal and State governments STOP disarming us and let us defend ourselves! It is our constitutional RIGHT.

Call your local and state officials and DEMAND that our right to self defense, the right to bear arms, be preserved so that such tragedies can be avoided.


TOPICS: Politics
KEYWORDS: banglist
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1 posted on 07/20/2012 2:08:40 PM PDT by jmstein7
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To: jmstein7

Colorado is a “right to carry” State.


2 posted on 07/20/2012 2:18:02 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: ArrogantBustard

Limited


3 posted on 07/20/2012 2:18:37 PM PDT by jmstein7 (A Judge not bound by the original meaning of the Constitution interprets nothing but his own mind.)
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To: jmstein7

*** Had but one - ONE - citizen in the the theater been lawfully armed, this tragedy could have been avoided.***

I doubt that. He had on body armor head to toe. An armed citizen shooting back might have shook him up so he might have missed a few. Now, if the citizen had a .30 Tokarev or a FN 5.7 mm he might have gotten through some of the armor.


4 posted on 07/20/2012 2:18:50 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I LIKE ART! Click my name. See my web page.)
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To: jmstein7

Good article.

Cinemark needs to be sued into the ground. Only way they’re going to get the message about their act of reckless endangerment.


5 posted on 07/20/2012 2:19:14 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: jmstein7

It might have helped, but consider the guy had ballastic armor over most of his body. It would have required a face/head shot to take him down - very difficult for a hand gun in a dark/smokey theatre with chaos ensuing around you. Still, getting hit by return fire could have thrown the guy into a panic of his own and caused him to retreat earlier than he did.


6 posted on 07/20/2012 2:20:31 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: jmstein7

“Take notice that these crimes do not happen in Right-to-Carry states, such as Texas...”

Yes they do. A simple web search would tell you otherwise.

The proper point to make is that violent crime is indeed lower and there is a better chance that a gunman’s shooting spree will be cut short in a right to carry state, but saying they don’t happen is just plain wrong.

Except for that, nice rant.


7 posted on 07/20/2012 2:24:35 PM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: jmstein7
Limited?

Really?

Explain ... all information I find is "shall issue".

8 posted on 07/20/2012 2:26:34 PM PDT by ArrogantBustard (Western Civilization is Aborting, Buggering, and Contracepting itself out of existence.)
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To: Godzilla
Everyone is brave in a one way shooting gallery. Once it goes Two Way, the dynamic changes. Even if you are armored.

If more folks had been carrying, this would have played out VERY differently. IF it was KNOWN that more folks carried in places like this, it might not have happened at all...

We can "might" and "maybe" this all day long. We KNOW that we cannot take our safety for granted. We KNOW we have the tools to help protect ourselves. We KNOW that factions in our government want us vulnerable and dependent on them.

Do not let them divide us. Do not give up your Rights. Demand that victim disarmament laws be stricken from the books. Do it now...

9 posted on 07/20/2012 2:28:18 PM PDT by Dead Corpse (I will not comply.)
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To: agere_contra
Cinemark needs to be sued into the ground. Only way they’re going to get the message about their act of reckless endangerment.

I hope you are being sarcastic...if not, why does Cinemark have any blame here?? The blame needs to be placed 100% on the killer..no one else..

One reason why this country is so dang screwed up..lawyers and frivilous lawsuits.

10 posted on 07/20/2012 2:28:47 PM PDT by trailhkr1
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

I hear you, but body armor isn’t a personal defense shield: there are gaps and weak spots. This is why they don’t test it by standing in a hail of bullets.

Inside leg, armpit, eyes, inside hand, gun, waistband - just fire enough and you might get a lucky hit.

Plus he’s not a grizzly bear: impact from a few hits might have knocked him down or spun him round.


11 posted on 07/20/2012 2:29:02 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: Dead Corpse

You get no arguement from me, and I think I echoed your points. Screw the gun grabbers on this one.


12 posted on 07/20/2012 2:35:22 PM PDT by Godzilla (3/7/77)
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To: trailhkr1
Are you serious?

Why did no-one in that cinema have a gun?

Fun fact which will be discovered at trial: it wasn't Jamie Holmes who prevented a huge crowd of Americans from being able to defend themselves. It was Cinemark.

We can discuss ballistic kevlar until we're blue in the face but the plain fact is that the shooter didn't need body armor. Cinemark disarmed his targets.

13 posted on 07/20/2012 2:37:05 PM PDT by agere_contra
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To: jmstein7

Ironically, when unarmed citizens are rendered helpless because of restrictive gun laws as in the Aurora outrage, the gun control lobby seizes upon it as evidence that the citizenry needs even more restrictive gun laws. In the mean time, criminals, oblivious to gun laws, continue to arm themselves to prey upon defenseless victims.


14 posted on 07/20/2012 2:41:31 PM PDT by luvbach1 (Stop the destruction in 2012 or continue the decline)
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To: agere_contra

Yes, those ‘gun-free zones’ really stop these crazed shooters!


15 posted on 07/20/2012 2:45:50 PM PDT by fortheDeclaration (Pr 14:34 Righteousness exalteth a nation:but sin is a reproach to any people)
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To: jmstein7

AMEN.


16 posted on 07/20/2012 2:47:09 PM PDT by Finny (A deal with the devil is ALWAYS a losing proposition. Voting for Romney to avoid Obama is just that.)
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To: jmstein7

How did he get an AR in there?.....all that garb he had on? I think overal length has to be 26”.


17 posted on 07/20/2012 2:57:13 PM PDT by MachIV
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To: MachIV

There are reports he propped open an exit door, ran to his car, got the munitions, and came back in that way.
I’ve been in some theaters where the exit leads outside, and doesn’t go through the lobby.


18 posted on 07/20/2012 3:01:21 PM PDT by nascarnation
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar
Someone having a gun isn't going to guarantee a better ending to something like this, but it does significantly improve the chances of it. You don't hear about these types of shooters having shootouts very often because they commit suicide or surrender as soon as they are met with force, or usually before they are met with force, but know it's close. I think this guys mind would have turned towards retreating and surrender as soon as someone shot at him. There are several other cases where evidence shows the shooters in those cases would have likely committed suicide as soon as confronted by an armed civilian the same as they did when confronted by law enforcement.
19 posted on 07/20/2012 3:02:43 PM PDT by ThermoNuclearWarrior (The time for our second revolution has come. It's our Constitutional right to overthrow tyranny.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar

Shoot him in the head, neck, legs, crotch, arms, anywhere would have stopped him.


20 posted on 07/20/2012 3:04:32 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: jmstein7

Posted on another site:

Why did the shooter choose a place where the people had no means to defend themselves?


21 posted on 07/20/2012 4:28:41 PM PDT by Voice of Reason88 ( Freedom is never lost all at once - Edmund Burke)
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To: jmstein7

I’m a Police Officer in North Dakota. I carry off-duty every day. Do I believe in gun control? To an extent, yes. Do I believe that people should still be allowed to purchase and carry concealed firearms? Yes. Do I believe that it would have changed the outcome of this at all? No.

In a dark theater, I doubt even I would be able to pinpoint who the shooter was, what with all the panicked people running around me, trying to get out. If I did return fire, with people everywhere, I’m just as likely to hit a civilian as I am the shooter. I would have drawn my firearm, but I wouldn’t have tried to shoot back, save for a contact shot if he came close enough for me to do so. I would have run for the exit with everyone else, and tried to push as many people out as I could.

Now, lets add tear gas, which our shooter also used, to this mess. I’ve been tear gassed before. It sucks. You go blind, and you start choking almost immediately. I could barely say my name or date of birth, and that was after 10 seconds of exposure. It took 20 minutes for me to recover. While choking on that shit, I guarantee I wouldn’t have been able to locate any one person in particular in a crowd.

Ruy Dias de Bivar mentioned that if you shot him in the “head, neck, legs, crotch, arms...” it would have stopped him. Picture this:

It’s in a dark theater. The only light present is that from the projector. It’s a midnight showing of a major movie, so the theater is packed with people. Now, they’re all running around, trying to escape someone shooting. The room is full of gas that’s causing you to choke, and your eyes to burn. He has a rifle. You have a pistol. You have to hit him in small, highly mobile areas such as the head, neck, or arms (possibly groin, depending on the type of body armor he had). What are your chances of hitting him in one of those highly specific areas, and not hit a single civilian?

Not odds I’d like to take.


22 posted on 07/20/2012 7:13:22 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: ArrogantBustard

It was a “gun free zone”


23 posted on 07/20/2012 7:21:30 PM PDT by jmstein7 (A Judge not bound by the original meaning of the Constitution interprets nothing but his own mind.)
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To: agere_contra

Exactly... The “gun free zone” policy made it a shooting gallery.


24 posted on 07/20/2012 7:24:21 PM PDT by jmstein7 (A Judge not bound by the original meaning of the Constitution interprets nothing but his own mind.)
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To: RipTorn; CodeToad

***Ruy Dias de Bivar mentioned that if you shot him in the “head, neck, legs, crotch, arms...”***

I didn’t say that. See my post #4. It is easy to confuse my comment with others like post # 20.


25 posted on 07/20/2012 7:52:17 PM PDT by Ruy Dias de Bivar (I LIKE ART! Click my name. See my web page.)
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To: RipTorn

“What are your chances of hitting him in one of those highly specific areas, and not hit a single civilian?”

Well, gosh, I guess when a bad guy enters a crowded theater just run and hope not to be a victim.


26 posted on 07/20/2012 8:18:28 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: RipTorn

“What are your chances of hitting him in one of those highly specific areas, and not hit a single civilian?”

Well, gosh, I guess when a bad guy enters a crowded theater just run and hope not to be a victim.


27 posted on 07/20/2012 8:18:45 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: Ruy Dias de Bivar; CodeToad

Right. My bad. I meant CodeToad. Wasn’t paying attention.

CodeToad: What else would you do? You’re criminally responsible if you hit a single other person.

Here’s a game you can play- go into a dark area, for instance, a garage and turn on a TV with “The Dark Knight” playing on it. Put on sunglasses, and sprint 100 yards to simulate the tear gas. Have one of your friends stand on one side of the garage, armed with an airsoft rifle, and you stand on the other side with an airsoft pistol. Have at LEAST 10 more of your friends running in between you two. He hits you anywhere, or you hit one of the runners, you’re out. You hit him in the arm, leg, head, or groin, he’s out.

Now, win 100 times in a row. If you can do that, I’ll believe that the situation would have been different if people in the audience were armed.


28 posted on 07/20/2012 8:35:19 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: CodeToad

If sheeple stampede prevented a clean shot initially said minute of torso target would have presented itself eventually. I like to think my first reaction if alone would to seek cover or concealment. If with loved ones I would have heel toed parallel to the threat an away from the crowd to draw his fire at me as I emptied my first two mags at him as fast as possible to make HIM go to ground or flee . Shoot’n scoot per se. My SWAG on the what if’s and maybes.

As you well know arm chair quarterbacking is best left to Mas Ayoob...:o)

Bottom line opinion is me an mine do not go where it is advertised all victims are ....


29 posted on 07/20/2012 8:52:57 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: Squantos

Fair enough. I’m just playing Devil’s Advocate here anyway. I wasn’t there, so I can’t say one way or the other what I would have done. I like to think I would have tried to get the civilians to safety by laying down suppression-fire, then disappear between the seats and try to sneak around behind him for a contact shot to the head. But who knows? I may have been the first one shot anyway. Or (Due to all my training, I doubt it, but still, Devil’s Advocate) curled up and shit my pants quietly.


30 posted on 07/20/2012 9:07:17 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: RipTorn

Agree... We shoot 3 gun, IDPA, train in a shoot house and blue on blue exercises with simunitions etc... My career is military, sheriffs deputy an contractor and a life long avid competive shooter. I carry a sidearm everyday an have a rifle in each of my vehicles.

Each situation is predictable if we stay condition red 24/7 and everyone is considered a threat. But relaxing and having fun like these folks were an to be ambushed in such a manner.

Heck I can’t say what I would have done, even with a fair background in the martial art of firearms during my lifetime.

We can only mitigate the damage. Hopefully said damage is on the criminal......

Stay safe, hope yer well...


31 posted on 07/20/2012 9:22:46 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: jmstein7
Had but one - ONE - citizen in the the theater been lawfully armed, this tragedy could have been avoided.

You are either incredibly stupid or so-brainwashed that you can't think rationally. Do you really think that "one" person sitting on the opposite side of a crowded theater, 25 to 30 yards away, with a .380, 9 mm,.40, or even the over-idolized .45 could have taken out a shooter wearing body amour in a surprise attack in near darkness, without killing or wounding innocent people? One lawfully armed person would not have stopped this unless he or she was in close proximaty to the shooter and had the training or natural skillsets to assess, analyze, and respond effectively under battle conditions. Indeed, I'm willing to bet there were concealed carry people in the theater who either panicked and ran or didn't have the skills or oppurtunity to safely take this guy down.

This is not an argument against CCW, but rather, I am attacking the all or nothing stupidity that seems to dominate these discussions. Rather than arguing absolutes (i.e., if "ONE" person had been lawfully armed), the better approach is for almost everyone to be lawfully armed and trained to react in a crisis situation (think Israel). If a person doesn't want to be armed and trained, then he or she should pay a tax, similar to the Obamacare tax for failing to buy health insurance.

My point is that you don't help our cause by being the drama queen. Not every life or death crisis can be stopped by "one" person with a CCW permit.

32 posted on 07/20/2012 9:31:07 PM PDT by Labyrinthos (RE)
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To: Squantos

“all victims are”

We, neither. They got the sign, we keep our cash.

Also, people fail to realize “body armor” isn’t always and it damn sure stings like mad. It’s an attention getter, and that’s all you need to get that critial shot in. First mag gets his attention, second one makes mash taters of his ‘puter.


33 posted on 07/20/2012 10:13:10 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: CodeToad

Good points all. I carry 3 plus II mags for a Glock 35 I converted to 357SIg with a supported chamber Jarvis barrel. Rides in a crossbreed rig.... 125gr GDHP from Speer . Very comfy an all concealable as my CHL rig.

As to body armor... Early in my career I was hit with a .22 rimfire high on the left side of my vest (old second chance brand) ...... It stopped it yet hurt like h3LL ! That was just a .22 long rifle from a handgun. Can’t imagine what a full house hit would feel like.

Hope yer well CT !

Stay Safe ....


34 posted on 07/20/2012 10:28:26 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: jmstein7

I would not feel comfortable firing at the assailant in a smoke-filled room.


35 posted on 07/20/2012 10:39:46 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: rabidralph

My point exactly.


36 posted on 07/21/2012 4:04:05 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: jmstein7
"Limited"

So is TX.

37 posted on 07/21/2012 4:07:08 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Godzilla

I think a kneecapping or shot in his foot or right in the nuts—or right beside them—would have been a good thing to do.

Lacking that, 2 in the chest would hurt. The guy doesn’t look like he is big on being hurt. This would have given people time to beat the living chit out of him.


38 posted on 07/21/2012 4:18:03 PM PDT by combat_boots (The Lion of Judah cometh. Hallelujah. Gloria Patri, Filio et Spiritui Sancto.)
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To: combat_boots

A shot to the pelvis is pretty disabling, too.


39 posted on 07/21/2012 4:49:22 PM PDT by rabidralph
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To: Godzilla
...return fire could have thrown the guy into a panic...

Right on! It sure would not have made the situation any worse.

40 posted on 07/21/2012 5:23:01 PM PDT by IIntense
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To: Labyrinthos

“Do you really think that “one” person sitting on the opposite side of a crowded theater, 25 to 30 yards away, with a .380, 9 mm,.40, or even the over-idolized .45 could have taken out a shooter wearing body amour in a surprise attack in near darkness, without killing or wounding innocent people?”

Yes.

Theater stadium seating allows a clear shot across a theater room, and the dork wasn’t wearing body armor as you think.


41 posted on 07/21/2012 9:05:35 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: RipTorn

“You’re criminally responsible if you hit a single other person.”

Where did you get that? You’re obviously not a lawyer or experienced in such matters.

Your situation as described is childish fantasy and moronically retarded at best. Not even going to play such a stupid game.

70+ people got shot doing nothing but trying to run away. I’d rather play my odds at getting to the bad guy before he got to me. As I said already, theater stadium seating allows a clear shot across the room and the dork wasn’t wearing the body armor you think protects him like a tank.


42 posted on 07/21/2012 9:10:05 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: Voice of Reason88

“Why did the shooter choose a place where the people had no means to defend themselves?”

Because according to the anti-carry posters here he knew it didn’t matter if they were armed because he could still kill them with impunity? /sarcasm


43 posted on 07/21/2012 9:13:27 PM PDT by CodeToad (History says our end is near.)
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To: Squantos

My plan would have been to drop to the floor and evaluate. Beyond that anyone saying anything is just blowing smoke.

Honestly speaking, though, Mrs. L and I have discussed this and our plan is to get the hell out. No hero crap, just survive. If there’s a golden opportunity for a clean shot, maybe.

If that makes us cowards, so be it.


44 posted on 07/21/2012 9:25:44 PM PDT by Lurker (Violence is rarely the answer. But when it is, it is the only answer.)
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To: jmstein7

Thes echain thetaers are all too intent to fleece you out of every cent of your money.

We have a very new multiplex where I live, they have a very nice front multiple ticket purchase booth out front, but they rarely use it.

They funnel the crowds instead to the refreshment stand to buy their tickets and then are asked several times if they want to purchase anything else.

I refuse to buy anything but the movie ticket and I tell them up front I simply do not have sufficient funds to purchase their theater priced candy, drinks or popcorn.

And the actual theaters are minimal manned if even that since films have mostly gone bye bye and its almost all digital

Welcome to the new era of theaters, you must buy what we sell, and we don’t care if you get shot.

I am slightly surprised some internet keyboard junkie hasn’t suggest placing snipers up in the control rooms with NVGs to take out anyone possibly doing the same thing.

And I bet in Israel they actually do have people there with just that in mind. Security in the theater.

But it all comes down to the people. Its the society, its the flawed dangerous leadership of a flawed ideology that created theses splinter groups and mostly for supporting them..
They support anything that helps their agenda whether they knew ahead of time it was going to happen.

And now Obama wants to hold hands with the victims, he has NEVER held hands with victims, these people he plans on visiting will be used as a political tools.


45 posted on 07/21/2012 9:26:53 PM PDT by Eye of Unk (Going mobile, posts will be brief. No spellcheck for the grammar nazis.)
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To: RipTorn
"I’m a Police Officer in North Dakota. I carry off-duty every day. ...I would have drawn my firearm, but I wouldn’t have tried to shoot back, ...I would have run for the exit with everyone else, and tried to push as many people out as I could.

What a sad piece of work you are. You signed up today just to post this and claim no citizen carrying would have been able to do anyhting else — raspberries.

46 posted on 07/21/2012 11:18:22 PM PDT by spunkets
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To: Lurker

Can’t argue.... Mindset etc drives the decision. We can prep and train for events we have seen before or think tank the future possibilities yet it all comes down to cya an aggressive an violent offense if family is in danger.

As I stated on other threads about this turd. We can only mitigate the damage. Can’t stop such if criminal is willing to die or has no fear of being captured.

Criminally insane are a beech indeed.

Hope yer well. Tell yer tribe to not give up on the care package. I just have to catch the lady that runs the company store.

Stay safe...


47 posted on 07/21/2012 11:46:32 PM PDT by Squantos
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To: spunkets

Remember when I said Devil’s Advocate earlier? Again, who the hell knows what would have happened. I’ve saved lives before. I know when to press forward and fight, and when to fall back.

From my understanding of the situation, to do anything but run would be suicide. I would have been unprepared, alone, blind, and outgunned. I can’t save anyone else if I’m among the dead.

And is it really my fault for finding this place while looking up the shooting the other day?


48 posted on 07/22/2012 8:09:58 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: CodeToad

Oh, forgot to mention in my other post- I go over this exact sort of thing when my department does it’s bi-annual Active Shooter training.

Is there any reason you can think of why you wouldn’t be responsible if you shoot and kill a bystander by accident? That’s the very definition of “Manslaughter,” NDCC 12.1-06-02, or, if you get a particularly liberal prosecutor, “Negligent Homicide,” NDCC 12.1-06-03.

And one more time, just for the record- Dark. Tear gas. He has a gas mask and a rifle. You have a pistol. He’s looking to kill anything moving. You’re looking to kill him specifically. Good luck hitting him.


49 posted on 07/22/2012 8:11:39 PM PDT by RipTorn
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To: jmstein7

Look, pal, the Swiss who we like to endlessly repeat are armed to the teeth, and have to practice their arm handling skills yearly (a constitutional requirement there, like, oh, Obamacare’s health insurance requirement here) don’t go and don’t have to go to movie theaters and supermarkets carrying AK-47s as many here suggest we all do.


50 posted on 07/22/2012 8:15:55 PM PDT by Revolting cat! (Bad things are wrong!)
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